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Thread: Question on civil behavior

  1. #1
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    Default Question on civil behavior

    With 10-15 thousand people coming to the Kenai to dip net it does not take a large percentage of people to cast a negative net over the entire fishery. Even if only 5 percent behave badly that means 500 people causing problems. So far this week complaints are coming in from all sectors of the community. I am not against the fishery but here are some examples that will threaten it in the long term:

    1. The five spaces at the Kenai Peninsula Wildlife Viewing Platform dedicated to people and visitors using the platform have been full of personal use dip net cars. While a person using the platform may stay for 10 minutes or so and therefore this fast turn over offers lots of people the opportunity to see the river, resources, and fisheries. In contrast, personal use fisherman are taking the spots with total disregard for the signs and limitations.

    2. People who are coming and going for the personal use fishery are letting their dogs run free in the estuarine wetlands and that is causing migrating and nesting birds to flee. The chicks of a number of birds have not fledged yet and this is just bad behavior on the part of these dog owners.

    3. Today, at the Kenai boat launch the traffic was backed up but I could get to the platform via walking from the main road. A school bus has brought some kids to see the activities. With kids running around a pissed off driver of a vehicle and a boat behind pulled quickly into the bird parking lot and tried to turn his vehicle and boat around with other vehicles behind him and thus it was a mess. Some people eventually moved so he could make it and he left quickly and fast. Not a smart thing to do.

    4 Fish guts and parts are being dumped around the community. One report is from near the senior center where someone dumped two buckets of fish guts over the bluff right in front of the center. Other spots for dumping fish has been in gravel pits near my home and in small streams like Slikok Creek.

    5. The Kenai Visitor Center has received comments that there is no place for three weeks for people who visit Kenai to walk on the beach without being in a crowd. Thus tourism which is important for Kenai is being impacted.

    6. Conflict between personal use fisherman continues over a variety of things. Some result in physical conflict but most are not.

    7 Personal use camping and access at Kasilof is again trashing the dunes.

    I could go on but the idea some Alaskans, who come down to the Kenai to enjoy the resources and beauty of the place, treat our community like a play ground with no rules is threatening all civil personal use fisherman. Each year I am hearing more of a backlash against these fisheries and the examples are piling up. So what I am asking is that people who see this negative behavior report it to someone in authority or take a license number or approach the individual with a polite request to stop doing what they are doing. For example, I explained to a person today why a dog running loose at this time of year was not a good idea and she was just not aware of the situation. However, there was no way I was going to talk to the pissed off vehicle driver or the person who in front of a number of bird watchers at a pond walked up to the pond with her dog and flushed all the birds. She knew what she was doing. Both of them were probably not in no mood for civil discussion but wanted confrontation.

    I would hope the dip net organization can seriously hear some of the issues and work toward solving them. Until we get the State agencies to take these seriously it is left to the users to do it. That is a sorry state of affairs but someone must try.

  2. #2
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Good post. Keep the discussion rolling!

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    This is the time of the year I dread going into my own community, and I avoid the beach area at all costs. Like many around here, and like the beach itself, it's just hang on and hope the madness is over soon.

    Having said that; be safe dippers. the Kenai has claimed one person already this week. He was a good man and will be missed.

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    It only takes one bad egg to ruin your day. On the bright side, the dip net season closes on the 31st and then it is just cleaning up the mess. Tight lines.
    Only those that can see the invisible can do the impossible.

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    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    Good post Nerka! The Ahtnas have been saying the same thing about their land for years. The worst part of all, its just a few bad apples that give responsible dippers a bad rap. Apparently the dipnet society needs a community patrol. Maybe the CI drift association could lend a hand their members sit on the beach most of the time these days anyway

  6. #6
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Look for the bad, and unfortunately you can find it. Look for the good, you'll find that too. My personal dipnet experiences have all been great. Rule number 1 for me: I am on a trip, and will enjoy it. The trip has some fixed costs, which cannot be avoided, as well as potential for emergency and unforeseen costs. Despite the cost, fish are not guaranteed. Fish are a blessing. I hope to be blessed to the full extent of my limit, but cannot count on it. If an opportunity to help a fellow angler crops up, I try to take that opportunity. Even if it means lost fishing time. God controls the fish; I control my actions. If I need the fish as badly as I think I do, He can put the fish in the net. And whether the fish come, or not, I've helped someone else have a better day. Hopefully when its me thats in need, there will be another thoughtful person nearby to lend me a hand. Like the fella on the dock who loaned me a crescent wrench for my plug.

    Its when a person gets too intent on having to catch fish to justify the cost that the bad starts to show. Worrying about the cost per fish does nothing for the mood of the trip; first and foremost, have fun, be courteous, and clean up after yourself. Either the fish are their or they're not- nothing you can do will change that.

  7. #7

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    so glad nerka is bringing this stuff up. the personal use people out there who are behaving badly are doing so either out of ignorance/unawareness, or they are simply wantonly disrespectful people. the first group can be shown the light, the second are the ones with whom i typically avoid confrontation. it is sometimes hard to tell the two apart, and has led to some nasty confrontations on my part. still, i would like to politely educate people and encourage more respectful behavior towards the community, other personal use participants, and the resources themselves. would anyone support a flyering campaign? it seems like windshield flyers reminding people of some basic courtesies (driving/parking on dunes, carcass disposal, etc.) might go a long way in educating people. then again some people get totally pissed if you go near their vehicle, so it isnt without risk. any suggestions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtysteev View Post
    so glad nerka is bringing this stuff up. the personal use people out there who are behaving badly are doing so either out of ignorance/unawareness, or they are simply wantonly disrespectful people. the first group can be shown the light, the second are the ones with whom i typically avoid confrontation. it is sometimes hard to tell the two apart, and has led to some nasty confrontations on my part. still, i would like to politely educate people and encourage more respectful behavior towards the community, other personal use participants, and the resources themselves. would anyone support a flyering campaign? it seems like windshield flyers reminding people of some basic courtesies (driving/parking on dunes, carcass disposal, etc.) might go a long way in educating people. then again some people get totally pissed if you go near their vehicle, so it isnt without risk. any suggestions?
    I think the more off season education that can be done the better. However, some in-season signs on the beach would help at Kasilof but peer pressure is still a good tool to use.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    +1 if I could Nerka well said.
    I am stuck on the slope but friends have described the madhouse down there.
    It is a shame that local people can use our public beaches 11 months a year without problems or fees. Come July we get shut out by dipnetters and city fees to access a public beach just to walk your dog or enjoy the view.
    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
    +1 if I could Nerka well said.
    I am stuck on the slope but friends have described the madhouse down there.
    It is a shame that local people can use our public beaches 11 months a year without problems or fees. Come July we get shut out by dipnetters and city fees to access a public beach just to walk your dog or enjoy the view.
    Truly stated. Unfortunately, that is the only way local authorities can recap some of the costs associated with clean up after the orgy at Kenai.
    I usually go down to Kasilof Beach a few times during the season and am saddened by the complete disrespect shown to the beach, and toward the area in general. I'm also a little put off by "clans" of folks who seem to up one whole area of the beach to the exclusion of other users. I have mixed feelings about regulating this beach, but know that it is inevitable at the rate it is being abused. Eventually there will have to be parking away from the dunes and folks will even have to leave their precious ATVs as well, instead of commuting the couple thousand feet to their RVs (rolls eyes).

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    What about putting a mandatory dip net education program (similar to the hunter education program) in place for each permit holder, with the permit holder responsible for teaching his household members. A permit that is to be produced when entering any of the dip net access points (like the shack at the Kenai parking lot). Just a wild and expensive thought.

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    Default Dipnetter ed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodk View Post
    What about putting a mandatory dip net education program (similar to the hunter education program) in place for each permit holder, with the permit holder responsible for teaching his household members. A permit that is to be produced when entering any of the dip net access points (like the shack at the Kenai parking lot). Just a wild and expensive thought.
    I proposed exactly that to the BOF in writing. It either has or will be officially considered by them, so please tell them you think it will help.

    I differ with the expensive word though. Hunter ed today is not too expensive and dipnetter ed would be similarly priced. Also, since it can be funded with the pittman robertson funds already sitting there doing nuthin' right now it will not cost the state one penny.

    I met with Lisa Murkowski, briefing her on this too. I did ask that she place one call to ADF&G asking if there is any reason why this should not be done, if any. I don't know if she followed through or not.

  13. #13

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    Education in general is a good thing. Reading a signature line such as "Wonder what would have happened if white guys had been standing outside a voting precinct swinging night sticks. Hmmm..." is making me wonder where to start. It is beyond bad taste, personally insulting, and hostile. When "free speech" equals harassment and intimidation, it is no longer "free".

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    Member Sockeye Scott's Avatar
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    The beach and the access to the beach is open to the public and free of charge year around. If you are just going to have a campfire and roast some weiners and marshmellows you do not have to pay to access the beach. Just let the person in the booth know and they will let you go down to the beach. The city of Kenai CAN NOT deny you access to the beach. They are "asking" for a payment/donation to offset the cost of the restrooms, dumpsters, additional enforcement, and the cleaning up of peoples mess.

    I don't mind giving a "donation" to the city if it helps to keep the beaches clean. I do not give a payment if I am just driving down to check out the scene or to have a camp fire. I live in Kenai and I am appreciative of what the city of Kenai is doing to try to keep the beaches clean so I do pay when I am going dipnetting. So far the only thing that I have left on the beaches is some blood from dead fish and some sunflower seeds. I am suprised by the trash left by others. I think that they look at it like it is not there back yard so they don't care how they treat it. I hope everybody treats the dipnet fishery with respect so that it will be around for a long time. I would not be suprised to see more regulations in the future as the fishery contines to grow larger and larger every year.

    Good Dipping,
    Scott

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    The negative impacts incurred by this fishery on the community, environment, and economy are astounding.

    If there is education, it should include awareness of what the people who live here must endure, the priceless cost to trashing our environment, and the unrecoverable expense of the aftermath.

    I am in favor of fee waivers for locals who live in the communities where these fisheries take place...boat launch, parking, license/permit, etc. Provide locals launch ramp and parking space privileges, since it is their own backyard. Include sales tax and fuel tax reductions for locals, to compensate for the giant seasonal expense increases on food, etc. they must endure. In addition I am in favor of multiplying the cost to non-locals exorbitantly. Make them pay for what they trash, and the use of our backyard. Maybe then, instead of giving our community away, we can afford to maintain our schools, fix our roads, provide better facilities, and retain some of the beauty and quality fisheries these communities were once known for. Don't like it, then move here.

    The fishery is a joke. It has become a recreational sporting event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Scott View Post
    The beach and the access to the beach is open to the public and free of charge year around. If you are just going to have a campfire and roast some weiners and marshmellows you do not have to pay to access the beach. Just let the person in the booth know and they will let you go down to the beach.
    Have you personally tried this at the pay shack?

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    Ditto to Nerka. Been pointing out the same thing for the last couple years. Flyers = more litter and very few will read them (the type of people who would read a window-flyer are not the problem). I especially like the new wave of clear/blue ice bags that are littering the ditches along the major roads for miles. What's so bloody difficult about using a dang trash can? By the end of July every year, I'm ready to join up with the 'shut-down-dipnetting' movement. Amazing what one little EO to solve an over-escapement problem way, way back has done to create this "right to dipnet and trash Kenai in the process" fishery.

    The ONLY real solution is cops, cops, and more cops. All the bad behavior is breaking an existing law, be it parking, littering, or moving violations. There is no need for "more regulations". We just need uniformed police out there in force, writing tickets, and keeping the sheeple in check. You can educate all you want, but that will only keep the honest people honest, so to speak. The rif-raf needs to be made to pay until it hurts, and then pay some more.
    Winter is Coming...

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    Default NO to more cops

    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    The ONLY real solution is cops, cops, and more cops. All the bad behavior is breaking an existing law, be it parking, littering, or moving violations. There is no need for "more regulations". We just need uniformed police out there in force, writing tickets, and keeping the sheeple in check. You can educate all you want, but that will only keep the honest people honest, so to speak. The rif-raf needs to be made to pay until it hurts, and then pay some more.
    We agree on the problem but not the solution. I don't think more cops will help, or at least help enough.

    The problem is the exact same problem that hunter ed mostly solved: People not doing what common sense says to do. If we can learn from history then we'll use what has already worked in similar situations.

    Can you cite an analogy where more cops helped people do what they already knew was right? My first thought on that subject is the Kent State shootings; more cops didn't help there at all. (yes, I know that's a lot different thing; but there are some similarities too.)

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    All the people are concentrated in one of 5 spots. Full time, highly visible, uniformed police presence at those specific geographic locations WILL solve most of the problems.
    Winter is Coming...

    Go GeocacheAlaska!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    All the people are concentrated in one of 5 spots. Full time, highly visible, uniformed police presence at those specific geographic locations WILL solve most of the problems.
    Precedent, please.

    So does lots of speeding happen in same places, like on the Seward at Turnagain arm. Go ask the head of the firefighters down there if he's happy and has a solved problem now (he has conducted many public meetings to ask for help with this).

    What about fishermen abusing pinks at Bird Creek. You can bank on it. Has that been helped by more fish cops?

    Cite some precedents. I did.

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