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Thread: Regulation - marking harvest card before concealing

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    Default Regulation - marking harvest card before concealing

    The regulation on the ADF&G website reads:
    The salmon must be recorded on the permit before it is concealed from plain view, such as put in a cooler, or before the salmon is transported from the fishing site, such as your vehicle.
    How is that enforced? When I was dipping on the N bank of the Kasilof each time I would catch a fish, I would beat it, pop it's gills, clip the tail and throw it in my cooler on the shore. I did not record my catch prior to what the reg would consider "consealing" because there were only 5 lines to record catches and I was planning to fish all day and didn't want to just leave my fish in the sun. I waited until the end of the day when I was done fishing to record my catch on my permit. I saw everyone around me doing about the same thing. Am I to assume that the ADF&G aren't going to be walking the beach checking harvest records while you are currently dipping and that it's going to be something like a checkpoint after leaving the area in your vehicle?

    I want to obey the regs, but marking your card before placing each fish in the cooler to keep your catch fresh is in my mind not the way the law was intended.

  2. #2

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    I do as you do. Before I haul the cooler to my truck, I record my catch. I figured if the cooler makes it into the back of my truck, then that would be considered concealed. But that's just my opinion.

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    Member TR's Avatar
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    "... or before the salmon is transported from the fishing site.."

    The operative word is OR.

    I've only seen troopers check card counts at the vehicle exit points off the beachs. I do the same as you. I don't count the fish and record until I'm ready to drive from the scene. I think most everyone does the same.

    They should change the wording of the regulation to state fish instead of salmon. Afterall, some people keep flounder.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydiver View Post
    I do as you do. Before I haul the cooler to my truck, I record my catch. I figured if the cooler makes it into the back of my truck, then that would be considered concealed. But that's just my opinion.
    Ditto,

    I'm not going to leav my fish in the sun until I'm done fishing. When I'm done fishing, I record my catch on the card, then the fish is moved.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Use a stringer. Hiking back to the beach with every fish to toss in a cooler is wasted effort. Walk into the ocean once, get all your fish on a string, drag it back to the beach at the end. Clip, count, and record. The water is well below 40F, so it will keep the fish nice and cold for you. I always slit the gills and clip the tail at the same time I put the fish on the cable stringer attached to my waist. They get to stay in the water and actually bleed out while I continue fishing. Once I leave the water with a stringer of fish, they are recorded on the permit before concealing them in a cooler.

    As for the harvest record, if you are putting fish into a cooler and closing the lid (concealed from plain sight) then you must mark the permit. No, you don't use one line per fish. You use one line per date. You use one "hash" mark per fish in typical groups of 5 fashion for making a tally. If you look at the ADFG website about the fishery, it clearly and plainly tells and shows you how to do this.

    If you are not clipping tails AND marking your permit, you ARE breaking the law if you conceal the fish in a cooler. Just because others are breaking the law also doesn't give you a free pass. Why are the LEO's not down on the beach citing for this? Because they don't want to get mud and fish guts on their shiny boots, and they probably aren't looking to hand out that many citations in one sitting. But they are fully within their right and duty to come down there and take away your dipnetting privilege just because someone wants to be lazy and not take 2 seconds to clip some fins and 5 seconds to mark the card in your pocket. (BTW- if you bring a family member or two along, you can delegate the documentation tasks to someone who isn't fishing).

    Yes, the "operative" word is "OR"... as in "either...or". If it said "AND" you could do one without breaking the rule. Because it says, "or", if you break either part of the rule you are breaking the whole rule. Elementary legalese. ;-)

    Oh yea, the reg says, "All fish harvested (salmon and flounder) must be recorded on the permit, in ink, immediately upon harvesting the fish." The only part that deals specifically with salmon is the part about clipping tail fins. You don't have to clip flounder fins.
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    Member Phish Finder's Avatar
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    Hey JOAT, are you going to be around this weekend? I'll be at the Kas. I'd love to have a beer, bourbon, or coffee.
    ><((((>.`..`.. ><((((>`..`.><((((>

    "People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they
    just like to pee a lot." --Capitol Brewery

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    Thanks for the reply JOAT, I've heard a lot of people advocating stringers so you don't have to walk back to the beach. Is there a magic trick for getting your fish out of the net? I found that most of the fish I caught I had to get the net on the sand in order to get the fish out of it due to them being twisted up and tangled (not to mention caught behind the gills).

    And since I was right next to my cooler anyway I tossed em in

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    Member RustyMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    If you are not clipping tails AND marking your permit, you ARE breaking the law if you conceal the fish in a cooler.
    Ohhh dont forget, you must clip the tails at a 43 degree angle.

    It's amazing how many people do not read the regs. There should be troopers down on the beach. Not just sitting in their trucks up at the boat launch. Those boots are pretty shiny!!
    "Safety does not happen by accident, it's a choice"

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    Default Where does it say to Mark the Harvest Card Before Concealing?

    I just read page 17 of the Southcentral Fishing Regs Summary (last two barbed paragraphs).

    As I interpret the rule, the term immediately allows dippers the option to both clip the salmon's fins and record the catch as late as "before transporting the salmon from the fishing site". This is because the word or allows the dipper to have the choice of two options (before concealing or before transporting).

    Surely, the stated definition for the word immediately must have the same meaning in both paragraphs - as it applies to both clipping tail fins and marking the harvest card - even though the second recording paragraph states: "immediately upon harvesting the fish". One accepted definition of immediately has previously been established as "before transporting."

    The term "in plain view" is not included in the definitions on page 5 of the rule book. Thus "in plain view" is up to interpretation of the individual reader. To my way of thinking, a fish inside of a cooler, or in a garbage bag, or a covered bucket sitting "in plain view" in the middle of the beach is still "in plain view".

  10. #10

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    "A person may not possess salmon taken under a personal use salmon fishing permit unless both tips of the tail fin have been immediately removed from the salmon. Immediately means before concealing the salmon from plain view or transporting the salmon from the fishing site."

    The way I read it, you have to meet both conditions. Not one or the other. Kind of like how you're required to use your turn signal (ok, so this may be a bad example for Alaskans) before turning or changing lanes. By using the word "or", that doesn't mean you can pick one scenario or the other for using your turn signal. It means in both instances. I wish the regs would give examples of just exactly what is meant when they're talking about a gray area like this. But maybe it's written that way so that it can be interpreted by the trooper on a case-by-case basis.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Wow; basic English folks. Just to take the last example, since it helps prove my original point of "either...or", if you don't use your turn signal while turning onto another road, you broke the law. And if at a completely different time/place you don't use your turn signal to change lanes, that was also breaking the law. Each instance is illegal all by itself. You didn't have to both turn a corner AND change lanes for it to be illegal, did you?

    Thus, basic logic 101 stuff here... if you conceal the fish from plain sight, that is illegal. Maybe this will help... if you leave the fish in plain sight lying in the open bed of your pickup and drive away from the fishing site, that is illegal, too. Even though you only violated one of the "rules". Get it?

    Phish... I'm in Valdez through Tuesday morning. I'll be dipping the Kasilof during random free times starting Wednesday and running to the end of the month. Got a few other activities planned here and there, such as an overnighter trip up to Spencer Glacier in 2 weeks. Are you going to be down the next weekend at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by quakinator View Post
    Thanks for the reply JOAT, I've heard a lot of people advocating stringers so you don't have to walk back to the beach. Is there a magic trick for getting your fish out of the net? I found that most of the fish I caught I had to get the net on the sand in order to get the fish out of it due to them being twisted up and tangled (not to mention caught behind the gills).
    It is a skill, but it is a 'learnable' skill. First, you have to get absolute control of the fish. When you have a fish in the net, pull the net frame back to you (this is why I like a short handle, mine is only 9' long). Grab fish and net all in one bundle. The fish will try to spin, so you need to get that movement stopped right away. The longer the fish gets to freely fight the net, the worse your case will be. The fish came in from the downstream direction, so that is generally the way it needs to go back out. I like to reach into the net from the upstream side with my "weak" hand and grab the fish under the gills from the belly side. I have my thumb inside one gill and all of my fingers in the other gill. Pinch your thumb to your fingers (inside) and the fish is yours (it's also a good time to slit both gills to start bleeding). Now you can start peeling away net with your other hand on the downstream side of the frame until you have a tail sticking out that is net free. Slide the strong hand up the back of the fish working under the netting until you're at the gills. Same grip that the other hand used, but this time it is from the top of the fish. Once you have a death grip into both gills, you can release the lower grip (weak hand) and pull the last of the net off the head. Immediately take the end of your fish stringer out and get the fish on the stringer as this is the one point where you can lose the fish if it starts flopping. If you started bleeding it right away and it takes a minute or two to get the net untangled, the fish will be pretty comatose by this point. But if you haven't started bleeding it yet, one little slip can be a lost fish. Oh yeah, I also use "grippy" rubberized kevlar gloves. It not only helps keep your hands from freezing in the cold water, but it helps get a solid grip on the fish.

    One more important point... make sure your dipnet handle floats. Once the fish is free and you're getting it on your stringer, both hands are occupied. If you have an aluminum frame and handle, it will sink and you'll be trying to fish it out with your foot. I installed foam flotation on my net handle. Get one of those $2 "noodle" water toys at a big box store. Slice it along one side so it can be slipped over your net handle and secure it with a few zip-ties. It also doubles as a cab-cushion for hauling the net in the truck. You just need enough on there so that with the hoop end on the bottom of the ocean, the handle is sticking up out of the water.
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    Member TR's Avatar
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    Joat,

    Do you want beer OR burbon? Means you cannot have both.

    Do you want beer AND burbon? Means you can have both.


    A cooler sitting on the beach with fish in it is in plain site. Truely, how many of you mark your card everytime you throw a fish in? Would end up being a wet bloody gob of smelly cellouse after 10 fish.

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    My opinion and I'm sticking to it: to concur with TR and many others, fish in a cooler on the beach are concealed about as much as fish on a stringer in the water, which is to say not concealed at all.

    And in neither situation have the fish been removed from the fishing site.

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    Member RustyMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Joat,

    A cooler sitting on the beach with fish in it is in plain site. Truely, how many of you mark your card everytime you throw a fish in? Would end up being a wet bloody gob of smelly cellouse after 10 fish.
    Agreed.
    I have a F&G acquaintance that I will be running into this weekend I will ask him how he interperts the rule and what he would consider legal.
    "Safety does not happen by accident, it's a choice"

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Joat,

    Do you want beer OR burbon? Means you cannot have both.

    Do you want beer AND burbon? Means you can have both.
    Seriously? You are confusing the positive and negative versions of the usage of "or" and "and". The "rules" (whether enforced or not, rules are rules) are prohibitive or negative connotations. You keep trying to make them positive or permissive usages.

    To make an apples to apples comparison to the fishing regulation, you need to change your example to the following:

    You may not have beer or bourbon.

    And it means that "you may not have beer" and it means that "you may not have bourbon" and it also means that "you may not have beer and bourbon". All of these negative or prohibitive versions are true while at the same time each it true independently of the other.

    These positive or permissive examples are comparing apples and oranges. It's elementary school English grammar.
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    JOAT is correct. A fish in a cooler with the lid closed is concealed from view, period. You can try to apply your own goofy spin to the definition of the words "immediately", "or", and "and", and argue it here online until you're blue in the face. It won't save you from a ticket if you get caught. "And", being ignorant "or" iliterate is not going to be a defense in the eyes of the court.

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    Member TR's Avatar
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    Funny: AND OR Gate

    And I'm not talking about logic circuits.

    How about this: Fish OR cut bait. Means do one or the other. Both is not required.

    Don't use the word MAY. It means either might or can. So depending on your meaning use those words instead.

    Joat, what is your native language? Perhaps we can communicate in that.

  19. #19
    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    How about this: Fish OR cut bait. Means do one or the other. Both is not required.
    Exactly. Now you're starting to get it. If you do only one, (e.g. conceal the fish from view) the statement is true. If you do only the other, (e.g. transport the fish from the site) the statement is true. So you don't have to do both to make it illegal, just one or the other. You guys keep providing examples that prove my point. I appreciate it.
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    JOAT is correct

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