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Thread: Tier I Nelchina Caribou Troubles

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    Default Tier I Nelchina Caribou Troubles

    I just heard thru the grapevine last night that a judge declared the states new Tier I program invalid. He also declared the AHTNA Community Sharing Program unconstitutional. I guess that means all those folks who just recieved their Tier I caribou permits are out of luck. It will be interesting to see how the Board of Game explains this screw up.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    does this grapevine have a link to it? court order? mannings case perchance?

    should be interesting if true... lets see how screwed up it gets now....
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  3. #3

    Thumbs up

    The case was closed on the 9th. Summary Judgement for the Plaintiff, Ken Manning was awarded. The State goons are trying to interpret the judge's words, to see if they can twist them around. This is why they have been SILENT on the issue and will not go public until they try to get their hands cleaned up. Was hoping it could have gotten straightened out last year, but the courts in Kenai have been full, taking care of prosecuting the Red Snaggers and such. Anyway, things will shake out in the coming days. You guys and gals owe a great deal of gratitude to Mr. Manning. He is one of the few left up here, that will stand up for his rights and lawful regulations. Those that stood by and allowed Unlawful Regulations to be placed on them and their families will no doubt be disappointed in the ruling, but HEY someone has to be the Watchdog for the Sheeple. Thumbs up for Mr. Manning and his supporters.
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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    What a screwed up unit...I don't feel sorry for the tier I's or the Ahtna. Bunch of bs. No way in he-double hockey sticks that anyone can claim "subsistence" for Nelchina 'bou, not even the Ahtna....

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by tccak71 View Post
    What a screwed up unit...I don't feel sorry for the tier I's or the Ahtna. Bunch of bs. No way in he-double hockey sticks that anyone can claim "subsistence" for Nelchina 'bou, not even the Ahtna....

    Tim
    You may be right Tim, (and I think you are), and if so, that makes the Hope caribou subsistence ruling so far from the realm of common sense as to boggle the mind...

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkwarthog View Post
    You may be right Tim, (and I think you are), and if so, that makes the Hope caribou subsistence ruling so far from the realm of common sense as to boggle the mind...
    Hope Caribou are leeeetle bit different of a deal. With the Feds driving the train, it becomes more difficult. But there are a couple of attorney's looking at the options and the best course of action for us to take. Here's "Hope"ing. "Hope"fully this one can be tossed out as well. But until such time that Alaskans unite and show/demonstrate that they are willing to fight for their rights/priveleges, I hold out little "Hope" for our success. Most will cave in to the Regulator's and whimper, they will tell their kids, Well thats the way the cookie crumbles.
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    Member dkwarthog's Avatar
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    Yea, I agree that I was comparing granny smith's to red goldens, but the effect is similar in the field...

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    Well, if anyone finds the judgement online it will be interesting to read. They addressed all the issues from the last objection to formulate the latest plan so they will have to modify it again depending on what the issues found. But boy, talk about bad timing. One month from D day. Probably wouldnt hurt the herd if they postpone all the hunting for a year.....
    “I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. “ Fred Bear

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    Well, if anyone finds the judgement online it will be interesting to read.
    It is filled with Legal Speak. Even the State Lawyers are standing around wringing their hands, trying to figure out what it says/means. What is disturbing, the fact that the Judge has done what some other Judges are doing a lot of these days, and that is Legislating from the Bench. But in any case, he applied the current law, which is way more than the BOG did.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  10. #10

    Wink Upon Inquiry

    Upon inquiry, here is the Official Response from ADF&G to date:

    "For the time being Bruce Dale is the primary media contact for this issue (907)746-6335 .

    We will also be positing this information as soon as possible on the DWC website. We will not be commenting on the details pertaining to any ongoing litigation at this time.

    Thank you to everyone involved for your teamwork on this highly controversial issue.

    · On Monday, July 12, 2010, Superior Court Judge Bauman issued a Decision on Summary Judgment in the lawsuit involving Tier I drawing and Community Harvest Permits for caribou in Game Management Unit 13.



    · The case, commonly referred to as the “Manning case,” was filed by Kenneth Manning and the Alaska Fish and Wildlife Conservation Fund against the State. Ahtna Corporation was an intervener supporting the State.



    · This decision overturns the Alaska Board of Game action in 2009 that eliminated the Tier II subsistence caribou hunt. The Board had designated a portion of the caribou to a Tier I drawing hunt and another portion to a community harvest permit, along with special provisions involving moose harvest and limiting eligibility for other drawing hunts.



    · The successful Tier I Nelchina caribou drawing permits for the August hunt were mailed last week but are currently invalidated by the Court decision. Successful permit holders should retain their notices while the State evaluates its options.



    · The State is considering its legal options including possibilities for appeal or request of a stay.



    · The Alaska Department of Fish and Game and Alaska Board of Game are considering options for administration of this season’s hunt in the event no stay of the court decision is issued



    · The State expects to have more information on possible actions by early next week.







    at this point"

    End response, More Folly to Follow.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Geez AKRes I haven't been onsite in quite awhile Glad to see you are still kicking the sit on their hands crowd square in the mouth. It is funny I had a permit when they originally came out now it is gone what gives?
    Here is that link for the court decision http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/news/gmu13courtdecision.pdf
    Just in case anyone has some spare time on their hands and wants to read it.
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    Thanks sledhands. Interesting read from the parts of it that I could understand. But my take is it seems like the court is saying they have to do Tier II and cannot do the tier I thing. They also didnt like the once every four years idea for subsistence. Community harvest permits also wasnt a good thing. Might be back to the old preference points right?
    “I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. “ Fred Bear

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default My take and opinion, for what it's worth

    Ever since demand completely overwhelmed the available supply of Nelchina caribou, the Board has struggled with this issue. It has from day one been a no-win situation for the Board. And has been fraught with legal challenges or threat thereof.

    One aspect of this court decision I found odd was the court agreeing that the Board had not properly notified the public according to the administrative procedures act of the possible changes to Tier 1 status or the one-caribou-every-four-years change. I believe that particular aspect of the decision may cause future problems...anyone involved with how the BOG works knows that during any meeting a wide array of regulatory changes can happen. Now it seems the Board is going to have to put out very lengthy documents prior to each meeting explaining all possible regulatory changes. Plus, this could imo affect other already-passed reg changes should someone want to sue on those grounds alone, that proper notice was not given prior to meetings.

    We've had many discussions on the forum as to whether or not hunting is a right or a privilege. Take note the court words as to that. Though they used the words "recreational hunting" being a privilege, not a right per se.

    I found this part of the decision interesting: "Local subsistence needs in Unit 13 for moose and caribou are important, indeed vital to many families. There is no doubt that traditional local hunting receives significant and arguably unfair competition from non-local hunters who are perceived to have, and may well actually have, more financial resources, alternative access to other subsistence game, and state-of-the-art hunting equipment. However...."

    The above is the real dilemma the Board has faced and has tried to deal with. As the court rightly noted though, they can't make regs that base eligibility solely on where one lives, and the CHP regs did just that.

    So...the deal now is that the community harvest program is still legal if 1) it doesn't confine eligibility to just residents in the 8 villages and 2) it is administered by F&G. We go back to Tier II as well, at least for this year. The Department and Board are currently trying to sort out what to do for this year's hunt. It is a mess. And it will continue to be a mess. I honestly feel for the Board on this one, what a quagmire.

    The only two possible solutions I see are 1) a constitutional amendment that gives "local preference in times of shortage," or declaring the roaded area a state non-subsistence area. As for the latter, that would likely mean all state permits went to draw-only for any state resident that wanted to apply.




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    I'm certain that I'll be labelled as ignorant, uneducated on the loooong history of the Nelchina debate, possibly racist or at least being and urbanite.......but why do we (the State) need to implement any type of subsistence permitting in this unit? Dont the Feds already hold a subsistence hunt for this unit? My vote...as if I had a vote....is to say get rid of the State Tier hunts here, let the Fed subsistence hunt suffice, and use a draw system for the remaining harvest objectives.....ya, I know.......let em fly.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I can see much more hunting regs along the lines of black bear hunting in units 2&3 fall season. Folks have talked about not allowing game to be transported by private vehicle over a given distance for forty years in Frank Furness plan for management as population grew in urban areas.There is a lot the state can do and if urban folks think is bad now surprise.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Member Steve Springer's Avatar
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    Last edited by Alaska_Lanche; 07-16-2010 at 23:31. Reason: Merged Thread and edited title to be a little more PG ;)

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    There are already multiple other threads addressing this. It's a good decision by the courts, just an inconvenient time of year/season to have it.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    if i was not stuck in anchorage... laughing so hard... i would love to give an intelligent reply....
    however the mirth forbids it... commuinty harvest is so wrong on so many levels.... has this case not Won..... i would have filed CH for the city of Anderson Ak next year... and gotten 500 Alaskan (white) residents at least 200 any bull tags in 20A
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    Member Steve Springer's Avatar
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    I agree with ya DAllen!

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    Default what a mess

    Some semi-random thoughts about this, while resting from salmon-processing:

    - I'm not sure community-harvest is just plain wrong. Imagine yourself too old to hunt and you can see a different perspective.

    - Demand outstripping supply does not equal a no-win situation. All 49 other states deal with this every day. Though I'll grant that AK has many unique circumstances, including the largest percentage of both native and subsistence users, the largest amount of land & the fewest roads, and much more.

    - Manning stood up for what he believed to be his rights, and he partially won. Good on him for standing up. So few people do. Also, look at the particulars of what grounds he sued on; smart guy, him.

    - I don't see the decision as full of legalese; at least more so than all court decisions. Heck, the conclusion (last page) is only one page long. The court did a good job synopsizing their decision. And yes, of course the state is reeling, and acting like "the state". What'dja expect?

    - I am most surprised by the timing. Any shyster worth his well worn suit bottoms can delay an actual decision based on the facts pretty much indefinitely; they must have thought they had their bases covered.... and obviously didn't, since Manning did win part of his suit.

    It will be interesting to see how the state will try to pick up the pieces from this. Of course first off will be an immediate (meaning 2 weeks from now ) letter to all the now-ticked-off winners of the permits to not count on hunting yet to stay tuned. Likely the state will move for a stay of execution for "just a few weeks" that will allow the hunt to happen, but if they think with their uptop head they won't, because it will make them look more foolish than they now look, if that is actually possible.

    Sheesh.

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