Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 40

Thread: Russian reds, keep snagged or not

  1. #1
    Member Raptor_1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    1,265

    Default Russian reds, keep snagged or not

    Starting this thread so everyone can discuss whether it is better to allow retention of snagged fish on the Russian. The thread for reports on the river was hijacked so I'm starting this one. Feel free to chime in
    Alaska: We're all here cuz we're not all "there"

  2. #2

    Thumbs up

    Reds snagged anywhere in the State, including the Russian should be required by law, to be retained and counted as part of your daily bag limit. The Charades played out all over the State on "catching" Reds is absolutely pathetic. The time has past when a spade should be called a spade on this deal. Lining, Flossing or any other name you might want to put on it is SNAGGING. Period. I have grown tired of the arguement that if Snagging is legalized, people will snag more...HUH...I don't for one minute buy that arguement. People are going to take home X number of Reds. They are Meat Fish, plain and simple. There is no sport to flossing, lining, dipping, netting, fishwheeling or Snagging Reds. The term "Being true to one's self" rings true here. We need to demand the State BOF officially recognize the Red Fisheries for what they truly are. Meat Runs. Nothing more.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sterling
    Posts
    421

    Default

    My geriatric recall is that in the '60's fishing was done with a weighted treble hook, rod and reel optional. There were also fewer people. There were a lot of campsites right along the road from Cooper Landing to the Skilak Road, and eggs and treble hooks were legal in the upper Kenai.

    It was a meat fishery. Hook it, keep it.

    Now I see snaggers everywhere I go, but they are selective snaggers. All fish are dragged across the beach, barbs are never flattened, and pliers are seldom used. It must meet their specs or it gets kicked back to the edge of the water, and it is up to the fish to find enough water to cover the gills. And it should be noted that they are predominantly driving vehicles with AK plates and no rental sticker. Some folks need to realize that people who can drop Thou$and$ on a vacation don't have a family history of F&G violations, but will take instruction from the locals.

    I've snagged a large few using legal spinners and flies simply due to the tension moving water imparts, no "twitch" required. You likely have as well. ANd it is usually easy to tell the difference between a snag and a legal hook-up.

    Two thoughts:
    Imparting action by jerking or twitching the rod or otherwise trying to intentionally snag a fish should be illegal, except that fish snagged anywhere, including the mouth, by casting not more than 20' of line with no more than 1 oz of weight located not less than 18" and no more than 48" from a terminal fly with a gap not exceeding (your choice) and allowing the tackle to move freely in the current with no further imparted action shall be deemed to be legal. Anyone accused of intentional snagging shall immediately forfeit all personal possessions within 50 miles of the site of the alleged infraction, including clothes, phones, equipment and transportation.

    Any fish of any species snagged or hooked in the body or the tongue or the gills while fishing with otherwise legal equipment and technique shall be retained and shall count as part of the daily limit.

    Flame away.

  4. #4

    Default

    WOW - ok I don't like snagging either, but loose transportation. Like LOOSE - are you for real.

    There are a two types of snaggers - the ones that do it and don't know better and the ones that know better. Normally not knowing isn't a great excuse especially in the court of law, but we have a ton of tourists fishing up here and I do think it should count for something.

    With that said they need to do more the stop snagging. Better and EASIER information to read. Summarized information for the biggest tourist areas like the Kenai and Russian River.

    Now why I don't think you should keep a snagged fish.

    1) Fishing properly and you will minimize the amount of snagging. Of the first 24 fish that we cought this year on the Russian we had 0 snags. I am not talking about 0 being pulled out after we shook a few loose etc there was 0 snags hooked into. You set your rig and gear up properly you can significantly minimize the risk of snagging

    2) Later on I had two snags - lots of fish were running, not paying attention, not setup properly - I don't know but had 2 snags. Both of those were lost by simply trying to loose the fish out there. Pliers were not needed and it was a quick fight and the fish was loose - no issues

    Now if you allow snagging you will get people that fish with the intention to snag. They will rip through the water creating a more unsafe fishing environment for people around them and they will get their fish. They will quicker open up their spot for other people and you will be able to increase the number of people in the river and therebye the number of fish taken out.

    Yes you currently loose some fish that die after being snagged but it would go up significantly.

    Now the people that pull up a fish look at it and hides it if to small - I don't think this is a large number. Lets be honest those people don't care if they are fishing above the limit. They will go to a different spot and fish for more fish. People that are blatantly doing things like that will break rules no matter what. Make rules that works for 97% of the people and go after the others. Don't justify bad behavior by changing the rules.

    My thoughts

  5. #5
    New member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Marshall
    Posts
    1,975

    Default Well, judging from...

    the fish I've pulled out of the Yukon, with huge gashes in them from either shark or seal bite, I could venture to guess that if a snagged fish were let go with the hook in them, that they could easily survive to reproduce, one played out to the beach, unhooked & then kicked back into the river wouldn't probably survive.

    I would vote against retention of snagged fish, then people would be purposely targeting salmon via snaggin' & that ain't fishin' in my book.

  6. #6

    Default Another consideration

    Hypothetical: Let's say it was legal to retain snagged fish.

    I think there would be a huge safety issue in the combat areas. You are now incentivising snagging. Most of the accidents that occur in combat fishing areas are due to lead flying back towards unsuspecting fisherman. Foul hooked fish that are being fought and not popped off with a straight rod down low to the water, but rather a high arcing bowed up rod. Imagine ALOT more of this occuring with it being legal to retain snagged fish.

    Here's your visual. Ton's of foul hooked fish running straight downstream (that's what they do everytime when foul hooked) and flopping on the surface being drug backwards towards dozens of other anglers. I envision a whole lot of lead flying in this scenario. Considerably more than already happens.

  7. #7
    Member Raptor_1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    1,265

    Default

    Good point and would be deadly with those weighted trebles
    Alaska: We're all here cuz we're not all "there"

  8. #8
    Member AKBighorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    1,244

    Default

    Nobody said to open it to weighted treble hooks.....

    I agree with akres.

    When was the last time you saw a red swallow a fly like a rainbow devouring a worm?

  9. #9

    Default

    Net is open to residents only for exactly the argument you have below - meat on the table. Fishing the rivers with rod and hook is meat to some people and just entertainment to others. Either way it is open to way more people every year.

    There is a difference...

  10. #10
    Member Raptor_1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    1,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKBighorn View Post
    Nobody said to open it to weighted treble hooks.....

    I agree with akres.

    When was the last time you saw a red swallow a fly like a rainbow devouring a worm?

    I've never seen it, never said I did. And actually in the other thread that was hijacked it WAS suggested that weighted trebles be allowed to snag and keep reds. With the close quarters comabat style of fishing on the Russian, weighted trebles are a very bad idea.
    Alaska: We're all here cuz we're not all "there"

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,526

    Default some things to consider

    Not to get into the details but there are some things to consider in this debate.

    1. Snagging was allowed and is still allowed in salt water for some fisheries- why is this? One reason is that returns are hatchery plants and a high exploitation rate is needed. The other is that the fishery is not very effective and snagging does not threaten overharvest.

    2. Snagging in freshwater where fish are concentrated will increase the harvest. The average Kenai River sockeye fisherman on any given day only takes 1 fish. Also 50% do not catch a fish- going to a snag fishery will increase the harvest and may impact localize stocks - it certainly will impact the allocation between user groups.

    3. Increase limits due to snagging will restrict the harvest to fewer people. For example in low returns the ability to snag and increased harvest will get to the harvestable surplus faster and restriction sooner.

    So there are a number of reasons other than the ethics of snagging to consider in making these decisions. The Board of Fisheries had heard all the discussions and ruled that the best interest of the public is not to allow snagging. I think that is the right decision for the Kenai even though we know lining is not catching a biting fish.

  12. #12

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    The Board of Fisheries had heard all the discussions and ruled that the best interest of the public is not to allow snagging. I think that is the right decision for the Kenai even though we know lining is not catching a biting fish.
    The BOF is being Intellectually Dishonest with themselves and the public. Nothing new here. No one in their right mind would advocate the use of Weighted Treble Hooks, Plunk and Jerk Method or Intentional Snagging....Yet the BOF advocates Lining, Flossing, Tossing back injured fish and Combat Fishing (by Restrictive Methods). The very best use of A Red Salmon is on a dinner plate. They are not a Sport Fish, never will be and it is high time the BOF recognize this PUBLICALLY. If we can't be honest/true to ourselves, how can we expect it from others (tourists)?
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  13. #13
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Willow, AK
    Posts
    3,365

    Default

    The refusal to allow the retention of foul hooked reds in the Kenai, under any circumstance, proves that "overescapement" in the Kenai has nothing to do with crashing the stock. It does have everything to do with lost economic opportunity in the commercial fishery. Not lost economic opportunity to the state, because a bumper run of fish inriver is really transferred economic opportunity; instead of the money running through the commercial industry to the state, it flows through the retail and service industries. If it was a true fear in the river that going past the assigned number of fish would cause damage to future runs, the managers would allow snagged fish to be kept to help prevent that from happening.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,526

    Default more dribble

    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    The refusal to allow the retention of foul hooked reds in the Kenai, under any circumstance, proves that "overescapement" in the Kenai has nothing to do with crashing the stock. It does have everything to do with lost economic opportunity in the commercial fishery. Not lost economic opportunity to the state, because a bumper run of fish inriver is really transferred economic opportunity; instead of the money running through the commercial industry to the state, it flows through the retail and service industries. If it was a true fear in the river that going past the assigned number of fish would cause damage to future runs, the managers would allow snagged fish to be kept to help prevent that from happening.
    Willphis4food, where do you get this dribble? You are mixing up a variety of issues and make little sense. You never provide one shred of data to support these claims.

    First, no one has ever said overescapement is a biological issue. However your use of the word crashing the stock is different. In fact the Kenai data set is very clear on reduced yields ( a form of a crash) from large escapements.

    Second, increased gain with large numbers of fish in the river is not true. There are limits to participation and levels of escapement where exploitation becomes very low. You can see this is the sport fish harvest with 6 fish bag limits vs 3.

    Relative to snagging when going over the goal the BOF has listened to those who feel keeping snagged fish is not ethical sport fishing in the Kenai River. That means they made a tradeoff and took a social position rather than a biological one. That does not deter them from being concerned about escapement goals because they have lots of fishing power in the combined commercial, sport, and PU fisheries.

    Finally for the BOF being dishonest by AKres. I think that is a wild overstatement. They have heard the discussion over lots of BOF meetings and different BOF members and have been clear on the record on this one. I also think that the statement that sockeye are not sport fish is really over the top. They certainly are by all measures of what is a sport fish.

  15. #15
    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Beaver Fork
    Posts
    3,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKBighorn View Post

    When was the last time you saw a red swallow a fly like a rainbow devouring a worm?
    Last week. And every summer going back as far as I can recall.......
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,448

    Default

    Hippie i saw some pretty wild sh%t in theh 70's. Not sure if it was real or not LOL. I persnaly have never seen a red chase a fly but i am sure it does happen out of reflex from time to time. The ones that are red sure will but who wants those?

  17. #17
    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Beaver Fork
    Posts
    3,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    Hippie i saw some pretty wild sh%t in theh 70's. Not sure if it was real or not LOL. I persnaly have never seen a red chase a fly but i am sure it does happen out of reflex from time to time. The ones that are red sure will but who wants those?

    Why do any salmon species strike once they leave the salt? Whoever unravels that riddle will make a fortune...Instinct, reflex, aggression, etc. are all plausible possibilities. I know I have used scuds, mickey-fins, and polar shrimp patterns on fresh sockeye (agreed that the tomatoes on their redds will strike anything, but...yuck) with good results. I've watched 'em actually charge and strike those flies, generally in clear-water, but on occasion it's worked in less than clear to glacial (Kenai) waters as well.

    I agree that the overwhelming majority of sockeye caught are done so via lining/flossing, however folks who deal in absolutes ("They never strike") are generally deluding themselves and trying to likewise sway others, in order to justify their own limitations and/or agendas....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

  18. #18

    Default

    If it was just about gathering meat then tourists wouldn't stand in the river for 8 hours and be happy the third day because they got a fish.....

  19. #19
    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Beaver Fork
    Posts
    3,853

    Default What if.....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeak View Post
    If it was just about gathering meat then tourists wouldn't stand in the river for 8 hours and be happy the third day because they got a fish.....

    How about lowering the bag limit to ONE sockeye for Non-Residents and upping it to 5 sockeye for the Residents? Perhaps then it would allow the folks visiting to say they caught a fish, while permitting the locals to actually fill their freezer.
    Secondly, the out-of-State folks tend to be the one's who take longer to figure out the technique involved, cut their limit to 1 fish and it'll speed up the limiting out of Tourists significantly, thus improving the crowds and the associated litter, habitat destruction, and room on the river issues that are associated with the fishery.

    As a side note, where can I get the new asbestos lined flame suit?

    (Sorry Dan, Drifter, Soda and co.)
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sterling
    Posts
    421

    Default

    A point of order:
    We first came to Alaska in 1965/1969. We have since lived in a lot of places. We own property and pay taxes and utilities. We buy NonResident licenses and don't apply for the PFD.

    Based on the people who stop here to shop and their comments, there are a lot of us. Just call the Circulation Dept at the Peninsula Clarion and inquire about their home delivery numbers in summer vs winter. Yes, some still claim residency, and some don't.

    We would need about 30 days longer to claim PFD and most other benefits of residency, and would need to overwinter to reclaim residency for a fishing license.

    Alaska has a large number of tourists, but it also has a very substantial portion of partial-year occupants who may or may not be residents, but many of those have been here for a very long time. Try to show them some respect.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •