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Thread: ADFG the big Kenai King lie

  1. #1
    Member krusty's Avatar
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    Default ADFG the big Kenai King lie

    All lies did every one know that fish and game has admitted that they have not been able to count fish for the last 5 years do to the fact the guy that used to calibrate the sonar had died and no one now knows how the correctly calibrate it.
    This was rolled out in a meeting in Soldotna this last week. I have fished the river now scents 1988 and this is the worst year I have ever seen, there are guides that have gone over 40 and 50ty hours with fish 16inchs, and small 15 lb jacks. Iím not talking about some first year guides or even 5 year guides, I talking about senior veterans with 20 plus years on the river and out of 18 to 20 of them in the last two weeks have caught 5 fish or less, but fish and game say there are 500 to 800 fish almost every day coming up the river, the only thing going up that river is ADFG lies, I know this is the slow time between runs but never has it ever been this bad.
    I fish this river to feed my family and to show my kids good sportsmanship, if we keep going like this it will kill this fishery along with all the people that count on the summer tourism that goes along with it.

  2. #2

    Talking

    Yes, we knew that. They also can't count moose, caribou, bear or wolf or money....but that don't slow them from 'managing' them....does it? Why should fish be counted/managed better than any other renewable resource? And, yes money is a renewable resource and returns each year as well.
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    Member Raptor_1's Avatar
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    Default

    Facts, figures, documents, without these claims of lies are nothing. Post something tangible and maybe we can have a debate. Otherwise it's pure speculation. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that some evidence would help substantiate your claims.
    Alaska: We're all here cuz we're not all "there"

  4. #4

    Default

    Is ADF&G lying, or is the accusation of lying the real lie?

    We won't know till you post how and where to find your facts.

    Hmmmmmmm.

  5. #5

    Default 10%

    Salmon are not managed for sport, but for the Commercial nets and that fact will never change. Just be glad that F&G hasn't screwed things up like they have in the 48 states and be happy for your 10% share.
    Only those that can see the invisible can do the impossible.

  6. #6

    Default Wrong sonar project

    The sonar project F&G was talking about was the sockeye sonar up at river mile 19 that used Bendix sonar. The king project is down at river mile 8 and they use different sonar equipment. Two completely different projects and the meeting was only about changes to the sockeye project. Calling F&G workers liers is pretty low, especially when you don't even have your facts straight.

  7. #7

    Default

    Krusty may not have stats, but he does speak the truth. This has been the worst king season that I have seen in my 25 years, considering the numbers reported by the sonar. I'm sure with a little digging, catch and test net statistics
    will back this up. The only positive sign for the Kenai king run has been the reported sonar numbers. Despite really good river conditions, ( other than a week in june) and pretty good sonar numbers, I no know one who has had decent king fishing this year. Other than a rare fish here or there, all the fish I have heard being caught are small jacks. What we really need is an independant review of the current sonar system. We rely much too heavily on its accuracy, and could cause irreparable damage if it is wrong. Everyone I know thinks that we should have never gone to bait and catch and kill.

  8. #8
    Member Raptor_1's Avatar
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    I'd be all for an independant review. It would probably get so politicized though with all the players involved (comm fish, BoF, ADF&G) that we may never know if it would be effective.
    Alaska: We're all here cuz we're not all "there"

  9. #9
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    Default Always easy to cast blame....

    & make blatant accusations...but I guess, if that's all you know, then hell, blame & accuse away...reflects back upon yourself.

  10. #10
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    Default stop this thread here

    Quote Originally Posted by krusty View Post
    All lies did every one know that fish and game has admitted that they have not been able to count fish for the last 5 years do to the fact the guy that used to calibrate the sonar had died and no one now knows how the correctly calibrate it.
    This was rolled out in a meeting in Soldotna this last week. I have fished the river now scents 1988 and this is the worst year I have ever seen, there are guides that have gone over 40 and 50ty hours with fish 16inchs, and small 15 lb jacks. Iím not talking about some first year guides or even 5 year guides, I talking about senior veterans with 20 plus years on the river and out of 18 to 20 of them in the last two weeks have caught 5 fish or less, but fish and game say there are 500 to 800 fish almost every day coming up the river, the only thing going up that river is ADFG lies, I know this is the slow time between runs but never has it ever been this bad.
    I fish this river to feed my family and to show my kids good sportsmanship, if we keep going like this it will kill this fishery along with all the people that count on the summer tourism that goes along with it.
    This thread has missed the point and is wrong on numerous issues.

    First, the guy who died comment refers to Al Menin who build the Bendix sockeye sonar counter at river mile 19. ADF&G had Al come up each year to repair any machines that needed work. Calibration is done in the water and ADF&G employees are more than capable of doing that. In addition, there have been counts for the last 5 years and they are a mix of Didson and Bendix. Not sure what was heard at the meeting but not the post above.

    Next, the reason the Bendix is being replaced is that Bendix stopped making the machines after Al dies. It was his pet project and he started doing this in 1966. So in respect to him Bendix let me continue while he worked for them. When he retired they said they could no longer support the machines with insurance and repair. In addition, the sonar field had advanced to better and new machines. So ADF&G actually started to move to new equipment in 1996 or so.

    Relative to the chinook sonar that is a different project and it does need independent review since there are serious questions about the allocation of targets. I have called for that and it should happen but who knows.

    I think it is unfortunate that one says ADF&G lies because again that is over the top hype. One can find out the major issues about the counters by asking and they do not hide the fact there are issues with the chinook counter. They do not want independent review and that is because a full public exposure will probably show some skeletons in the chinook sonar closet and that is not lying - it is just not wanting to disclose things that make them look bad. A little different in tone.

    So lets stop this thread and go on to getting the independent review of the chinook sonar and people on this forum who have influence with KRSA and KPGA and KAFC should come together on this one - lets see if it happens.

  11. #11

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    They do not want independent review and that is because a full public exposure will probably show some skeletons in the chinook sonar closet and that is not lying - it is just not wanting to disclose things that make them look bad. A little different in tone.
    Perhaps in some folks eyes, Half-Truths, Deception and Denial of Facts are merely "a little different in tone", but I was taught these were Lies. Who would want to defend this type of thing? I figure only those that want to continue the Charades or someone with Skin in the Game.
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  12. #12
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    The local F&G biologists are good guys and are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. They have no reason to lie about anything. There is a lot of confusion over sonar counting methods and some disagreement amoung personnel invloved in the project. They are trying to work this out the best they can and yes, a review is in order. Sometimes politics gets in the way of local staff and this can come from the Regional level, or direct from Juneau. This is almost always a bad thing and if there are any lies being told, don't blame the local staff.

  13. #13

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Lure View Post
    The local F&G biologists are good guys and are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. They have no reason to lie about anything. There is a lot of confusion over sonar counting methods and some disagreement amoung personnel invloved in the project. They are trying to work this out the best they can and yes, a review is in order. Sometimes politics gets in the way of local staff and this can come from the Regional level, or direct from Juneau. This is almost always a bad thing and if there are any lies being told, don't blame the local staff.
    Gotta Disagree to an extent. One thing I have learned about Beauracracies; Everyone involved in a given process shares the blame for Coverups. They fear the axe at every level and no one is immune. Everyone of them want to make sure they keep their job at all costs, even compromising their integrity and self worth. Hence the reason for some resorting to Anonymous Whistleblowing in the past. But that didn't work, as many found out. I hold no hope for finding Truth and Disclosure from anyone directly involved in a Beauracracy.
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  14. #14
    Member Raptor_1's Avatar
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    Default

    As soon as they politicized the fishery it was doomed. Politicize anything and it is doomed.
    Alaska: We're all here cuz we're not all "there"

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default

    While it is legitimate to continually challenge the validity and utility of our fishery management tools, I think the opening post is unnecessarily harsh and mean-spirited in tone. Not likely to gain much support among rational heads on this board.

    BUT.....

    That said, there is no substitute for the value of real-life, real-time, on-the-water observations of guides and veteran fisherfolks with multiple decades of Kenai experience. When real-life experience can't be reconciled against virtual technology, something is wrong. To ignore their perspective is equally irrational.

    Nerka and I (along with others on this board) have asked policy-makers for a comprehensive independent review of the entire chinook sonar project. There is simply too much riding on these numbers to take a gamble on accepting them at face value without the confidence of their true validity. Is this really the tool we want to use to determine the annual fate of Alaska's most intense and contentious sport and commercial salmon fisheries?

    I once made some pretty bold statements a few years back about ADFG's fuzzy numbers, enough so to raise defensive hackles pretty high up the SF heirarchy. Admittedly, my delivery was a bit harsh... something about cooking the books.... and it was NOT well received. But the fact stands that during the 2005 late run, the sonar numbers were so far off from on-the-water reality, that ADFG felt compelled to change them in-season... a precedent that still haunts the sonar program.

    Turns out a calibration error was to blame.

    So when they re-calibrated the sonar by only ONE decibel, the chinook number magically DOUBLED overnight.

    Look we all love technology. Seems the world can't get enough... smart phones, the world wide web, instant everything. And the sonar is no different. Gotta know NOW! I often wonder how many hits that fish count page gets everyday... I know I'm guilty.

    But when we are relying on a technology with such finicky tolerances, and then using other indicators of run-strength to trump what the sonar says (either high or low) when we feel it doesn't reflect on-the-water reality, and then resort to recalibrating the technology to better fit the information obtained from the other indicators anyaway.... IN-SEASON???.... then it begs the burning question. How much value does the technology REALLY bring to the table?

    I think a lot of folks want to see that question answered.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    I am thinking calibration has got to be off. There are lots of sockeye coming in right now, most of the kings are smaller than the sockeyes coming in and on Saturday with a good king count the test net didn't catch a single king, that info from a person on the river actually talked to the netters. Hopefully the numerous jacks are a sign of good things to come this run.

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    The counts say lots of fish are in the river. Personal observation and conversations with a couple of long time guides and other folks who have lived on the river for 20+ years say that the kings are missing. Don't know why the counts are so far off..... information I provide would probably be shouted down as misinformation anyway...... so hope the rest of you continue to look, listen and make up your own minds.

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    Default the "lie" word doesn't help

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Lure View Post
    The local F&G biologists are good guys and are doing the best they can with what they have to work with. They have no reason to lie about anything.
    "Lie" is such a strong word its bound to stir the emotions to the point where good discussion can no longer take place.

    Certainly F&G does have a good bit of "politics" type of sway to it, as certainly evidenced by the recent gathering of opinion by a plethora of ex-F&G guys and how many current ones? Was it actually zero?

    That grouping of publicized opinion made a pretty clear statement I think.

  19. #19
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    Fished the Kenai hard 3 days. Fished from Sunken down to tidewater. Saw a total of 3 kings boated in 3 days. All 3 kings 20lbs or under. On some of those days the sonar was at over 800 with what I would call perfect water conditions--or at least very good.

    I have fished the river for a long time--not sure if I have ever seen it this dismal in July--given the good water. Pretty scary situation if you ask me.

    On the bright side the reds seem to be coming in. Kings---let's pray.

  20. #20
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Pretty consistent reports of brutal fishing the past week.

    Keepin' my fingers crossed.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
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