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Thread: blood knot or double surgeon

  1. #1

    Default blood knot or double surgeon

    I normally tell beginners to use the double surgeon to add tippet or adjust a leader section and have just for the sake of ease....and have used this knot for years. It's quick, simple, you can tie blindfolded.

    I have however noticed it's not very durable and to be quite frank weak at best at least in light lines. I'm not able to tell (or atleast havent caught it happening yet) lines jumping and cutting themselves leading to the failures in light tippets.


    So this year I started using the blood knot more....so far I've liked it better, it's not much harder to tie (my eyes are still good lol). I have distained this knot for awhile now just becuase it takes more time. It's easy in heavy line, the lighter lines can be a pain. Just seems to hold up better.

    Till last night grayling fishing, I broke a blood knot twice. Probably was my error, as I havent had an issue one with a blood knot till last night.

    your pick? and why?


    Oh and btw, grayling fishing was snaztastic! Had the hole place to myself and it appeared no one had gone through it in awhile....and of course the fish were biting, thunder storm and all

  2. #2
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    Default triple surgeon

    I started using the triple surgeon several years ago. For me it seems much better than the double. I only use it for adding more tippet to the leader. For all other leader segments I either use the double nail with the tie fast combo tool. If I don't have the tool handy I use the double uni knot.

  3. #3
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    Thumbs up Tie one on

    Quote Originally Posted by TOMCOD View Post
    I started using the triple surgeon several years ago. For me it seems much better than the double. I only use it for adding more tippet to the leader. For all other leader segments I either use the double nail with the tie fast combo tool. If I don't have the tool handy I use the double uni knot.
    Pretty much same here... when splicing lines in a hurry (fish are bightin', hands are wet or cold, lots of knots to do for others) I use triple surgeon's knot.

    Another good one is at least 3 full wraps on a nail-knot (using a small straw/pipe is easiest). I use this mainly as splicing knot to fly-line, or I'll make a loop in my fly-line for quick loop2loop connection like a grip-knot.

    The best one I find for this purpose (making leaders or attaching tippets) has been the blood-knot... by far #1.

    It is important to moisten-lubricate spliced lines when pullin' 'em tight.

    While a uni-knot is a good one to know... it is not very strong for this purpose.

    An interesting, over-looked/unfamiliar knot for loop2loop connection is the perfection-loop... Often tho' I'll go a quicker figure 8 knot with larger dia. lines.

  4. #4
    Member LItoAK's Avatar
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    Default

    Im a fan of the double surgeon. I will tie some pre-made leaders with blood knots either the night before fishing or stock up in the winter. If I am fishing though I will use the double or triple surgeon just for ease and time.
    I normally only use the triple surgeon for larger fish like salmon or fishing in the salt. Dollies rainbow and grayling get the double.

  5. #5
    Member G_Smolt's Avatar
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    Default

    I use 2 leader knots for hard connections, and 1 for loop-to-loop...Uni and Blood knots for hard ties, Lefty's little loop (nonslip mono loop) for floating connections.

    All 3 have very high % test retentions when tied properly, and they are low-profile knots. They create less drag, they don't pick up weeds and crap as frequently...you get the picture.

  6. #6
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    Default Another Vote for Triple Surgeons

    I used to tie blood knots until a friend convinced me that triple surgeons knot is stronger by showing me an informal test: tie both in the same piece of leader material and pull the ends until failure. Blood knot failed first almost every time. Triple surgeon is easier to tie and better with more dissimilar line diameters also. Drawbacks: looks more clunky and is more prone to pick up grass and trash.

  7. #7
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    Default

    I use the double uni to attach tippet exclusively, in the know wars tests it beat the blood every time and the blood was stronger than the surgeons. Since I have switched I have never looked back
    Fish when you can, work when you have to.

  8. #8

    Default

    thanks for the recommendations... Have never tried a double uni, or even herd of the triple surgeons lol...I'll give'm both a go.

    Just disappointed in the double after years of using it.....and still a little miffed at why the blood knot would have broke.

  9. #9

    Default

    While a uni-knot is a good one to know... it is not very strong for this purpose.
    Look at them and think about them, and they're actually the same knot, just tied differently by most folks. Tie your nail knots using the same technique you use for uni's, and you can throw away the useless tool.

    I make all my own tapered leaders and use bloods for the junctions between 40#, 30#, 25#, 20#, 15# and 12#. Then I use a variation on the double surgeon to join any finer tippets: Double the lighter line and use that as though it was a single to make your double surgeon. Wet it before tightening the last bit, and it's a fershure 100% knot.

    Two things could be happening with your failing plain double surgeons: Could be that you aren't wetting them enough, and it could be that the jump between leader diameters is too large.

  10. #10
    Member liv2fish87's Avatar
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    Default tripple

    ive never seen or heard of a double surgeons. matter of fact if you only do it twice the knot never holds. u put it through 3 times and that knot is supposed to put the line at max strength
    Go Fish

  11. #11

    Default

    bb....oh I've got plenty of slober on them LOL!

    The jump typically is just replacing the 5x tippet I normally use for grayling. I carry and assortment of tippet material down to 0x to replace it as needed if I've cut to far into the taper.

    The only thing I can think of why I'm getting some failures with the double is the line is jumping as it's coming tight, lubed or not.

    Either way kinda makes me want to start making furled leaders again.....easy to do once you've got a jig made up and the jig itself was a cake walk.

  12. #12

    Default

    Hmmmm. It makes me wonder if you have a bum spool of 5x? They're out there sitting in the sun on store shelves, and they go bum if they sit around your house or rattle in your vest for years. I used to think mono was bad for UV degradation, that is till I started buying floro. Man, that stuff goes south fast.

    Even full and never used I now dump and replace all my floro spools smaller than 3x each spring. A few years back we were using 7x floro for midge emergers on Montana spring creeks when a large caddis hatch started at dusk. I switched to 5x tippet and started breaking off fish faster than I had with 7x. Recognizing the problem I borrowed a piece of new 5x from my bud and stopped breaking off fish right away.

    I'd dump your spool of 5x right now if you didn't buy it this year. Ask yourself just how long you've owned it.

  13. #13

    Default

    Typically I buy new tippet spools on a yearly basis...MOST years I'll polish off the 4 5 and 6x spools. Kinda on a slow year this year lol. Never considered the line itself could be shotty.....good thinking!

    We had this problem with some fireline on the gulkana, the tracer (yellow and black) stuff....never again! The solid yellow holds up much gooder!

  14. #14

    Default

    Yeah, it's kinda hard to figure your knot tying suddenly going bad.

    I'm such a freak about leader quality, I won't buy from shops that have lots of windows unless they keep it far to the back and out of the sun. I also won't buy the last spool or two on a display. And if they've got a dozen spools on a peg, I'll go for the middle of the stack.

  15. #15

    Default knot testing...

    Prior to a trip to the Naknek recently I took my 8 lb. Maxima to the garage and spent a couple of hours testing MY knots. So... with MAXIMA, and MY saliva and MY knots this is what I found:


    • Improved cinch knots will fail first ALL the time.
    • Rapala knots did not fail prior to the mono breaking between knots.
    • Blood knots failed.
    • Leader failed ALWAYS before double surgeon loops and double surgeon's knots failed.

    With about 60-70 hours fishing on the Naknek I had one "failure" and it occurred on a fish AFTER I had wrapped the leader on a rock. No knot failures.

    Would I had the same results with the same knots with another brand of mono? Don't know. Had someone else tied the same knots, again, don't know.

    I think everyone would be enlightened to see what fails with a hook clamped in a vise and a spool of their preferred mono and tying up various knots. Give it a whirl.

    L

  16. #16

    Default

    I sat through a long session with a notable fly fishing character in his Islamorada shop, a dynamometer, and a great big pile of sample monos. Testing was more about true breaking strength of the various lines versus what the label said on the spool, and secondarily about breaking strength of some common tarpon and blue water knots using those same lines- not knots typically used by freshwater anglers unless they're chasing IGFA records.

    The point was to find lines that were consistent, did not exceed their labeled breaking strength (a no-no for IGFA) and knot strength among those that met but didn't exceed their labels. Basically "the strongest 20# line in the world" doesn't mean jack if it is stronger than 20# by actual measurement, and the IGFA measures before certifying a record.

    The results blew us all away. The most consistent at meeting labeled breaking strength and not exceeding it was the cheap, bulk version of Ande' and not their tournament stuff. And the best at achieving 100% knot strength with 100% knots was also the cheap Ande'.

    Most others we tried were over their breaking strength, with Maxima and Trilene being the most over. IIRC Maxima 16 pound actually broke at 24#. Woops. A few broke way under rated poundage, but off the top of my head I don't remember what they were.

  17. #17

    Default

    Triple surgeons knot. Strong, easy, use it a lot.

  18. #18
    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by G_Smolt View Post
    I use 2 leader knots for hard connections, and 1 for loop-to-loop...Uni and Blood knots for hard ties, Lefty's little loop (nonslip mono loop) for floating connections.

    All 3 have very high % test retentions when tied properly, and they are low-profile knots. They create less drag, they don't pick up weeds and crap as frequently...you get the picture.
    I need some knot lessons! fufu coffee on me





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  19. #19
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    Default

    Fullbush,
    Come Octember I will be all over that.... Let's hook up.

    George

  20. #20
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    Default

    I find this interesting and I think I am getting to wrapped around to completely understand the subject. That is I am knot saying the subject is knot worth tying up some time however I would also knot say it does not have a certain diameter or more or less weighted in one way versus the other. I guess it all comes down to spooling my thoughts and looping them together which is not to say it is knot worth mentioning it's just I get all tied up sometimes when discussing this subject. Um! Well which again is a deep subject sometimes all upon it-self I still like to keep it simple and use braided butt loop leaders from Orvis for most if not all Grayling and Mid Size Trout fishing andjust add 3-5ft of tippet material straight on with a loop to loop system. I suppose this entire subject then just makes me loop-E ;-) For Salmon and or Bass and yes Carp when back in MI I just put 20-14-12- etc.... one piece of leader material nail knot to the fly line and fish. Of course if I am fishing midges and or steelies that changes the game and I make all my own leaders!

    :-) What a fun subject

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