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Thread: Auto-Loader Handgun at 100 Yards.....75 Yards....??

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    Default Auto-Loader Handgun at 100 Yards.....75 Yards....??

    Has anyone done any NON-OPTIC enhanced, just open sights research for rough groups at longer ranges........? Say 75 Yards or 100 Yards.....? I was just putting some cheap ammo (10MM Blazer) down my range at 50 yards, through a new Kimber (Eclipse Custom II). I was really just trying to blow the "NEW" out of the barrel, But I was shocked at the group.

    I request the thread be about center fire Auto-loading handguns and not Rim fire or Revolvers/Single shooters. I am also only interested in the cartridge's and the handguns, as I am clear everyone but me can shoot tacks at 100 yards, after running two miles, and being blinded by pepper spray.

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    I have been very impressed at what my 10mm Glock 20 with 6" lone wolf barrel will too at longer ranges too. Busting rocks at 50-75 yards is really quite easy and clay pigeons break regulary at similar ranges. Its all about consistant sight picture. I saw a trick shot once shoot an egg at 100 yards with an open sighted 1911 in 45 acp. pretty impressive.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    A select few can get full use of their handgun. They call them trick shooters but practicing alot shooters is a better word
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    I guess I am wondering why for the most part we do not think of auto-loading handguns as useful for ranges beyond 25 yards and 50 yards at the outside. And think of them as defensive tools only.

    I am guilty, I have only ever thought of revolvers as practical 100 yard handguns. Anyway after the 2 5/8" group at 50 yards, I am willing to consider the 10MM as a viable hunting tool for thin skinned game to 75 yards and maybe even 100 yards.

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    I think it's all about the "perception" of the role of autos, versus revolvers and single shots. Autos are seen mostly for close range, rapid fire defense, "spray and pray" that big magazine in traditional marksmanship terms. They aren't typically used for hunting or expected to make long range shots, so people don't try.

    BTW- If you want to get really good at 75 or 100 yards, do most of your shooting at 200 yards. It magnifies your wiggles and wobbles and really forces you to concentrate on technique. Just as shooting at 100 yards improves you at 50, and shooting at 50 improves you at 25.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I believe with most SA's its the FPE left in the bullet at longer ranges. I carried a grease gun in VN some and even at fifty yards if not for more than one hit on target the results left them still fighting. Of course with the grease gun the bullet had probably tumbled many times before reaching the fifty yard mark
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    One serious problem is a good visible target, at 100 Yards a 6" or 8" bright florescent target on a white background works good. Finding a good large target for 150 or 200 yards could be a problem.

    I wonder if even 2% of the owners of auto loading handguns have ever fired their firearm from a bench to see group sizes of different ammo.

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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    Several years ago when I shot a fair amount of IDPA, I regularly practiced at the 100 yd line on B27 and IDPA targets. What you can do with a little practice at those distances is remarkable to most folks when you learn how much holdover and what the sight picture should look like. We once even shot a fair amount of .45 ammo at a 1/4 sheet of plywood at 200 yds... and hit it a surprising number of times.

    A 5 gallon bucket was in serious danger at 100 and even 150 yards. Energy levels from most auto loaders really drops off quick but I wouldn't want somebody cracking shots at me from that far. As a hunting weapon the energy limits you severely.

    Also a brief look at military arms from the early 20th century reveals several variations of automatics with tangent sights graduated to rather optimistic distances (several hundred yards)... ie. Browning HP and Artillery Lugers among others. Apparently those armies didn't regard the pistol as a short ranged affair but European armies tended to place more emphasis on handguns than the US military did.

    I think to confine a pistol to close range is not giving it its due...

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    Good points on the low SD of the bullets for long range effectiveness on game.

    There are sincere problems with typical bullet shapes or profiles too. I've taken deer out to 50 yards with 45 ACP hardball, and it was an eye opener. Performance was so poor it really left serious doubts in my mind about effectiveness on human targets. Just goes how to wimpy people are, I guess. Even the lowly 38 Special with Keith-style semi-wadcutters at standard velocities is a better performer on game. I could tell no difference between 45 ACP and 9mm hardball on deer. Rotten!

    At the time I was doing such things the only halfway effective 45 ACP factory load was the Remington 185-grain HP, and that never expanded but did operate more as a "flat point." I haven't killed deer with any of the recent super bullets. Load a 250 grain Keith to the same velocities as hardball in a 45 Colt however, and the revolver just smacked the snot out of deer. And no, I don't it's due to the silly little 20 grain weight difference!!

    Decent game bullets would help semi's on game at longer ranges a lot, but that's not what the guns are built for or used for. Wimpy people at longer ranges? Hit em first, and that's probably plenty.

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    Just seems like a 10MM should be effective to 75 Yards as far as penetration is concerned. I had just always assumed that the firearms would not hold 4" group at that range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Just seems like a 10MM should be effective to 75 Yards as far as penetration is concerned. I had just always assumed that the firearms would not hold 4" group at that range.
    I bet it will penetrate like heck with ball ammo, but it depends on what you want it to do along with the penetration. As for 4" accuracy at 75 yards? Heck, most revolvers won't do that with factory ammo, and especially in the hands of casual shooters. Work up some loads and work on technique just as with a revolver, and I bet you can scare 4" real badly, if not beat it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I bet it will penetrate like heck with ball ammo, but it depends on what you want it to do along with the penetration. As for 4" accuracy at 75 yards? Heck, most revolvers won't do that with factory ammo, and especially in the hands of casual shooters. Work up some loads and work on technique just as with a revolver, and I bet you can scare 4" real badly, if not beat it.

    The Kimber layed 10 inside 2 5/8" at 50 Yards, but the lighting was perfect. And that was 200 Gr. Blazer FMC ammo.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    With that bullet you would have about 400FPE at fifty yards
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    With that bullet you would have about 400FPE at fifty yards

    More than most arrows............? or if you shot the animal in the head, 400 FPE should be plenty.

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    I've like shooting a Nagant revolver at 100 yards. Aim, pull the trigger, have a smoke, talk to the guy next to you, then look downrange an watch the bullet strike

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    I wonder about the 5seven I would imagine it has the potential to make shots like that routine.

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    The Tokerav was designed for shots out to 50 meters. The 7.62x25mm even in surplus configuration can hit pie plates at 50 yards.

    Ron

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    I guess I am hoping that some owners of Auto-loading handguns will do some testing for groups at longer ranges, and report the results.

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    Default or even longer range

    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    We once even shot a fair amount of .45 ammo at a 1/4 sheet of plywood at 200 yds... and hit it a surprising number of times.
    Just foolin' around I once shot a 9mm Baretta 500 yards using a dead rest at a target 1/2 the size of a sheet of plywood; a suspended free "swinging" (so it would "gong" better) armor plated steel target.

    After half a clip of getting the sighting and windage right I could hit it about 80% of the time. The fun part was seeing others faces when they realized the little gonging sound that came back so many seconds after my shots was actually my little 9'er really hitting it.

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    I guess I am hoping that some owners of Auto-loading handguns will do some testing for groups at longer ranges, and report the results.
    Well what are the parameters?

    50,100,150,200 yards?
    30 cal, 9mm, 40, 45?
    factory loads or hand loads?

    Just checking before I go out and start shooting.......

    Ron

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