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Thread: HUMANS......??? What is a good "Healthy" sustainable population in Alaska

  1. #1

    Default HUMANS......??? What is a good "Healthy" sustainable population in Alaska

    OK, I am ready to RUMBLE......bring on the flaming........ We talk about manageable herd levels (Like we were GOD).

    It seems to me the the Human population is the one variable that is left out of the evaluation. Why does no one ever say Alaska can support "X" amount of humans, and beyond that number ALL other species are substantially impacted.......? King Salmon for example.

    I am NOT a Greenie, But I love Alaska. And remember when you could hunt and never see another hunter, fish and never see another fisherman. I am not dreaming of the old days. But I deeply fear for Alaska's future. And everyone has become so angry and vicious about their Right/Entitlement to every fish and animal. We have destroyed the very thing we love.

    At some point do we set it up so that Last Names starting with "A' through "M" fish odd number years, and hunt in even number years....?

  2. #2
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    "Alaska" can support a lot of humans. Cook inlet and the road system are reaching capacity in many areas. More roads and spread out the population and it will take the pressure off for a while. Ironically most people don't hunt or fish so honestly the "human" population has unique variables in that we could support millions in ANC, just build a bigger walmart...

    The limited road system is very poor at spreading people out economically. These days even properties in small towns like sunshine are getting subdivided and sold off for hundreds of thousands of dollars (Millions?) to provide more launching pads for people to get out in droves...

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    Member cdubbin's Avatar
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    Get that padlock ready, mods..... here we go again
    " Gas boats are bad enough, autos are an invention of the devil, and airplanes are worse." ~Allen Hasselborg

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    "Ironically most people don't hunt or fish so honestly the "human" population has unique variables in that we could support millions in ANC, just build a bigger walmart......

    However, Even Non-hunters and Non-Fisherman have an impact. Look at the severely depleted Natural Gas inventory in Cook Inlet, and the outrage of any development on the west side of C.I. that would harm the sport fishing. Or The Knik-Arm Crossing (Note: I was chairman of the Knik Arm Crossing Association in 1970/71') and the impact on that area. It is not just the the hunting/Fishing, look at the trash on Mt. Denali, or the complaints by responsible ATV'er about the swarms of ATV'brats at the trail heads last week-end. It is the sight-seers and fisherman that kill each other on the Seward Hwy.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdubbin View Post
    Get that padlock ready, mods..... here we go again

    I like your signature........very ZEN.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I wish I had a good answer for the ATV crowd. I am leaning toward buying a plane and forgetting about the ATV's... As for Denali, I think requiring every piece of gear/equipment/food to be marked with the name of the party making the attempt would be a start. If any of their marked trash is found on the mountain they are charged an annual storage fee (a big one!!) until they recover it and bring it in as proof.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Way to many folks and most bunched up in a small area. Humans don't have to hunt and fish to effect wildlife. The use of water,sewer,wood, gas, oil, transportation of goods,loss of habitat. Bet caribou don't migrate through downtown Anchorage anymore. All the highways to keep folks happy and the road kill that goes with it. I like to think it takes about four years to get a replacement bear going and at least two or three for caribou and deer with three of four years again for sheep and goats. Say each person in the Anchorage/Kenai area only took one salmond each because they don't really hunt and fish that much it would be about 250,000 fish out of a small area. Alaska is a 200,000 people state and I feel anything over 10,000 person town is to big sustain without damage to the area.If the big cities paid what the little cities did for goods they would be gone.JMHO

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    These days even properties in small towns like sunshine are getting subdivided and sold off for hundreds of thousands of dollars (Millions?)
    Sunshine...as in south of Talkeetna... or Sunrise by Hope? Lots here are the same price they were 5 years ago. About $10,000 an acre. Most of the sudivisions in this area were subdivided 20+ years ago..hot on the heels of the proposed state capital move.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    Member sameyer's Avatar
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    Default couldn't agree more AGL

    We are the only species on earth that has managed to outwit the natural selection process. There are too **** many of us and everyone, even those antis that profess no impact do in fact have an impact.

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    yep, no question that the number of humans is the "elephant in the living room" that no one wants to address.
    there is NO WAY that alaska can support the number of people here now, whether through hunting or agriculture , ranching or mining (or tourism).. our impact is far greater than our contribution....
    the cost to support the people here is greater than any return.
    guess we are going to have to "burn the village to save it" so to speak...
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    If the oil gets shut down the people will follow. At least half of the payrolls in Wrangell are government jobs that produce now sell-able product to bring outside dollars.About 20% of payrolls and store workers that can only exist with the government workers.Then we have 30% retired,fishing,logging which bring new money to town. The town has gone from a couple thousand a few winters ago to about 800 this past winter

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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    A million, tops.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    Sunshine...as in south of Talkeetna... or Sunrise by Hope? Lots here are the same price they were 5 years ago. About $10,000 an acre. Most of the sudivisions in this area were subdivided 20+ years ago..hot on the heels of the proposed state capital move.
    my mistake, yes I meant sunrise.

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    yep, no question that the number of humans is the "elephant in the living room" that no one wants to address.
    What is there to address, Dave? Do we need a plan to get people to leave Alaska? Would you volunteer to be the first?


    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    there is NO WAY that alaska can support the number of people here now,
    Is Alaska the only state with more than it's resources can support? Is each state SUPPOSED to only contain the number of people that can be supported by the resources within?

    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    the cost to support the people here is greater than any return.
    Does that statement include you too, Dave? Does it cost more to support you than what you contribute? Maybe that's the key to who stays..........you have to produce more than you consume.

    No one knows the answer to the title question. Our modern transpo system allows people to live almost anywhere and goods/food to be transported there. Humans have lived that way for thousands of years. Maybe that's "natural".

    AGL4...........maybe if you really think there's a problem.............YOU could be the first to leave! Set an example.
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    sit down and watch that new movie the road..... we'll see how sustainible the human population is after they start eating each other...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    sit down and watch that new movie the road..... we'll see how sustainible the human population is after they start eating each other...
    I watched that and between it and zombie-land (much better post apocalyptic movie) I feel more justified in the owning of massive amounts of firepower. I never saw the value in a Saiga 12 gauge before but I guess I didn't factor in zombies and cannibalism to the previous equation. Now I think I need a couple of em!

  17. #17

    Thumbs up

    Not since the first ships arrived, have Alaskan's been able to sustain themselves. And...I doubt very much that even the decendants of the aboringinees want to contemplate the thought of doing so again. Outside of a few villages in Europe, and several third world societies modern man relies on importation and trade to sustain themselves. But...I would like to see the Parkies and naysayers returned to their places of origin.
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    Studies have have been done that conclude that for every calorie of food on a typical persons plate it took 8-10 calories of oil to get it there. We have become experts at turning oil into food.

    For a detailed analysis, including some very good graphs, go to this link:
    http://www.energybulletin.net/node/50793

    Overall, humans use 30% of all fossil fuels in agricultural production.

    U.S. Military is forecasting a global oil shortfall of 10 million b/d by 2015.

    Snip:

    US military warns oil output may dip causing massive shortages by 2015



    Submitted by Mikael Höök on Mon, 2010-04-12 20:36.
    The US military has warned that surplus oil production capacity could disappear within two years and there could be serious shortages by 2015 with a significant economic and political impact. The energy crisis outlined in a Joint Operating Environment report from the US Joint Forces Command, comes as the price of petrol in Britain reaches record levels and the cost of crude is predicted to soon top $100 a barrel.
    "By 2012, surplus oil production capacity could entirely disappear, and as early as 2015, the shortfall in output could reach nearly 10 million barrels per day," says the report, which has a foreword by a senior commander, General James N Mattis.
    Read more: The Guardian
    Read the US Military report: see below
    AttachmentSizeJOE2010.pdf3.12 MB

    Link: http://www.peakoil.net/headline-news...rtages-by-2015


    Most people have no idea what the exponential function is and how that relates to the growth of any population or the use of a resource. Dr. Albert Bartlett, Prof. Emeritus of Physics at the University of Colorado, Boulder explains it here:
    http://old.globalpublicmedia.com/node/461

    You can choose audio or video. He has given this lecture thousands of times all over the country, including to Congress.

    Might I suggest anyone interested review as much available information as they can get their hands on. Then make a decision as to what is best for you and yours.

    One of the most motivating statements I have ever heard is "Hope is not a plan."

    Cheers

  19. #19

    Default You are working under an unrealistic

    definition of carrying capacity and available resources. These terms and concepts only apply to a population inccapable of food processing and storage.
    Your premise of a carrying capacity for people might apply in the Sudan.
    Don't you define resources as all resources available? If not, why not?
    The carrying capacity of a population living in a valley full of gold nuggets is certainly exponentially higher than one without the gold.
    This is a strange topic to bring up in the summer.... Try again in January.
    Mike
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    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  20. #20
    jwolf
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    I say lets knock out modern health care (Id be dead), all fossil fuel consumption and transport, shut down the power plants and lets find out..!
    I suppose you could reverse your question and ask, if this were the case, how many people could survive in Alaska? Few.. the last frontier is being consumed and left spoiled just like every other frontier.. Humans, today, have little to no chance of survival outside their little cushion of modern convenience and that convenience comes with the cost of destroying our natural environment..
    We are breeding a diabetic and asthmatic etc.. gene pool that will continue to worsen generation by generation so if its any condolence.. were breeding ourselves out too..
    Sorry, I understand your plight but.. what can you do about it??


    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    OK, I am ready to RUMBLE......bring on the flaming........ We talk about manageable herd levels (Like we were GOD).

    It seems to me the the Human population is the one variable that is left out of the evaluation. Why does no one ever say Alaska can support "X" amount of humans, and beyond that number ALL other species are substantially impacted.......? King Salmon for example.

    I am NOT a Greenie, But I love Alaska. And remember when you could hunt and never see another hunter, fish and never see another fisherman. I am not dreaming of the old days. But I deeply fear for Alaska's future. And everyone has become so angry and vicious about their Right/Entitlement to every fish and animal. We have destroyed the very thing we love.

    At some point do we set it up so that Last Names starting with "A' through "M" fish odd number years, and hunt in even number years....?

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