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Thread: How slow is slow? When should we close alltogether?

  1. #1
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Default How slow is slow? When should we close alltogether?

    It's looking like something needs to be done to save the resource. I say close all the fisheries till we see what needs to be done. Sport, Commercial and PU. All over the Mat-Su, not just one or two runs, ALL OF THEM. NOW.
    Include the Kenai and Kasilof till we see what is actually returning.
    Am I wrong? I say let the resource come back, not special manage for a certain fishery. Close them all and let see what happens to come back. Screw the fish managers, let the fish tell us when enough is enough. Frankly, I have had enough. I want my fish runs back and to hell with the fish politics!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  2. #2

    Talking

    Can't argue the facts. But....you might as well be shouting at the moon.
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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default Deja vu?

    Have a look here as we celebrate the 1-year anniversary of this forboding thread:

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?p=509101#post509101

    Boots on the ground and boats on the water knew things were bad almost from the get-go, yet ADFG took the wait and see approach for the entire month of June. And here's the fallout from the wait-and-see strategy....

    At a time when sport fish harvest in these streams should be high, few fish were observed caught or hooked. Anglers have reported the fishing has never been this poor. On Friday, June 26, boat and foot surveys were conducted to count king salmon in traditional holding areas on these systems and few king salmon were observed during these surveys. On June 30, a helicopter survey was flown on Willow, Montana, and Sheep creeks and the Little Susitna River to count king salmon. The number of fish observed was far below expected numbers of fish required to meet escapement goals.


    http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/EONR/index.cfm/FA/archive.NR/NRID/1118/year/2009

    ******

    Oh yeah let's not forget what happened a few weeks earlier....

    The biological escapement goal for king salmon in the Deshka River is 13,000 to 28,000 fish. King salmon escapement to the Deshka River through June 10, 2009 was 865, well below the average escapement for this date. From 1997 to 2008, an average of 5,450 king salmon has normally passed the department’s weir located at river mile 7 by this date. Based upon current projections, approximately 5,623 fish may reach the spawning grounds. This run projection could change as the run develops, but at this time all remaining returning fish will likely be required for spawning escapement.

    http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/EONR/...1090/year/2009
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post

    Boots on the ground and boats on the water knew things were bad almost from the get-go, yet ADFG took the wait and see approach for the entire month of June. And here's the fallout from the wait-and-see strategy....
    Perhaps immediate C&R Inlet-wide as a stepdown EO until we get thru this next series of good soft tides.

    Reduces exploitation by an order of magnitude while still preserving recreational opportunity and salvaging some semblance of a fishery for guides/outfitters/lodges/eateries to eek out a living this summer.

    We should not repeat the mistakes of the immediate past.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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  5. #5
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Default Maybe you are right Doc...

    Maybe C&R should be the next step. I'm just reliving the past and it ain't sweet. IMO.
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Default Agreed, Now What?

    So what do we do as individuals? How do we take action and put something like this into place? It is the Fishery Manager's jobs to call the ball but WE are the fishers.

    I agree 100% about the kings, I have been concerned about them for the last 8 years as the stocks have become more exploited and returning in fewer numbers.

    The only trouble I see is that they are a multi-year spawner and we will have to have continued efforts through the next several years of C&R in order to save the stock... how is that going to play out in the offices of tourism and the Kenai Guides? They will fight tooth and nail; who else is ready for that besides me?

    Lets go, Ken... let's do something.
    "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit is better than he who takes a city." ~ Proverbs 16:32

  7. #7

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Back Country Robb View Post
    So what do we do as individuals?
    Fish MORE!!! But.....target the predatory species. Namely Rainbows, Dollies and Pike. Try to get out more often than you usually would. Kill off as many predator fish as you can.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default If you are going to lay off catching kings...

    ... then it should be so across the board: commercial, trophy, meat, and C&R. Anything else is hypocritical.

    When I set netted, we used mesh which was not conducive to catching kings due to material and mesh size. They either bounced off, or tore through it. That was a long time ago, but perhaps a few years of linen nets wouldn't be so bad for the com. guys as they target reds.

    I personally believe that the problem is beyond our ability to fix at the local level, and is a high seas issue. Still, there are just way too many people on the rivers each after their grail.

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    akres- What data/studies suggest that pike / rainbow / dolly predation in freshwaters is a substantial factor which leads to low returns? (excepting the obvious pike problems in the west su)

    I completely agree that this is a good direction for anglers to direct their efforts, but it seems hardly adequate by itself to address the low UCI returns.


    Being that smolt numbers are hundreds/thousands of times larger than spawning numers, I suspect that freshwater predation is a minor concern for most salmon populations relative to getting large numbers of spawners back.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by andweav View Post
    akres- What data/studies suggest that pike / rainbow / dolly predation in freshwaters is a substantial factor which leads to low returns? (excepting the obvious pike problems in the west su)

    I completely agree that this is a good direction for anglers to direct their efforts, but it seems hardly adequate by itself to address the low UCI returns.


    Being that smolt numbers are hundreds/thousands of times larger than spawning numers, I suspect that freshwater predation is a minor concern for most salmon populations relative to getting large numbers of spawners back.
    You do know there used to be a bounty on the Dollies, don't you? Rainbow populations have exploded due to the recent regs on No Bait, No Retention and that nonsense, more now than ever before. Countless millions of smolt are eaten by freshwater predatory fish. Don't need a study to tell me what I already know. Many have asked what can be done. Well....I am saying this can be done, and....you still get to keep on fishing. That's all.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Default

    and I agree. However, the skeptic in me suspects that this is just a small piece of what we should do to help produce better returns. Completely agree it is a good focus for angling effort.

    C&R for chinook would be a cop-out at this point, either the runs are strong enough to fish and harvest, or it should be closed completely.



    A relevant question I have been pondering:

    There are numerous hatchery-based runs in areas where wild stocks were formerly small or nonexistant. These smolt live in the ocean and consume resources before they return. Doesn't it seem likely that these fish directly compete for food/space with wild stocks? Especially when millions of humpies are returning, I can only suspect this biomass could be returning in the form of chinook instead.

    Only so many mouths that can be fed. If we (adf&g) are enhancing humpies and sockeye, primarily for commercial benefit, i would suspect that we are gaining these fish at the expense of diminishing wild stocks.

    Am I wrong in thinking that this is an additional pressure on small stocks such as UCI chinook? Seems like it could be a substantial piece of the puzzle that we can control. Maybe it is only a small impact, but if we are trading potential chinook / coho biomass for humpies that get stripped for roe, I have a big concern.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by andweav View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking that this is an additional pressure on small stocks such as UCI chinook? Seems like it could be a substantial piece of the puzzle that we can control. Maybe it is only a small impact, but if we are trading potential chinook / coho biomass for humpies that get stripped for roe, I have a big concern.
    You are not wrong in thinking this, and I assume you are correct in expressing that it is a "big concern" to you. But....imo, it is not something that "we can control". It is something that THEY can control, but the reality of it is that they aren't going to. So "we" are left to do what we can within our Circle of Influence and worry less about what is in our Circle of Concern.
    "We" Can:
    Stop pressuring the Spawners.
    Dis those that don't.
    Kill off the Predatory Species, whether they be fin, feather or hair.
    Stop buying the Commercially Caught Kings and Fish Products that result in By-Catch. Boycott

    All the rest on the do list is for those that possess that influence. Do what you can and be satisfied with knowing that at least you did 'something'. All this jabbering about the problem, pointing fingers at the other guy and writing letters to the legislators ain't helping. They know what they are doing and are not going to stop until the well runs dry, be it fish or dollars.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  13. #13
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Default Call Fish and Game and ask that they close the fisheries

    I'm calling Dave Rutz at the Palmer office and asking him to close the king fishery and I will help support his decision with everyone I know. I'm also calling the Anchorage office and asking the regional Biologists to support him also on this too.
    I have not looked at the Kenai early returns, as of yet, but if the numbers are low there, maybe we should start talking at a minimum, catch and release there too. Everybody needs to do their part till we get our returns back.
    Anyone got any better ideas???? Besides Akres point of targeting predator fish? I'm game and willing to listen!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    hey Wop, can you get your AC to have a meeting?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

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    Default I'm gonna try to

    Thanks for the idea too Vince!! I have already contacted Local Are Biologist Rutz and told him he has my full support to close the fishery.
    I even contacted Robert Begich about the poor runs for early kings in the Kenai. We are at 724 as of 6/2/10. Last year at this time we were at 2117/ year before that 3013/ and the year before that 1615 Kings. The Kenai numbers don't look so good. here is the link for my numbers

    http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/Fishc...displayResults

    Hey Doc, You follow the Kenai more than I do. Has history shown that we can play catch-up with these numbers?
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    Hey Doc, You follow the Kenai more than I do. Has history shown that we can play catch-up with these numbers?
    We are in uncharted territory with this dismal run. The lack of fish is unprecedented.... worse than the previous worst-ever by a longshot.

    No run that has ever started this slow has rallied enough to make goal.... NONE!

    I smell drastic action any day now.

    The entire Inlet-wide chinook return looks bleak.

    As systems are shut down, the few remaining ones left open will bear extreme angler pressure from displaced guides/anglers.

    If you are planning to be one of the "transients" fishing waters you normally don't fish, take it upon yourself to limit your impact in some meaningful way.

    If you're gonna fish, there are tangible ways to reduce your own personal impact on what remains of these runs this year.

    Voluntary pledge to non-retention unless the fish is mortally wounded?

    Voluntary pledge to kill no hens unless she is mortally wounded?

    Voluntary season limit of one or perhaps two fish tops?

    It can be whatever you want it to be. Just make the pledge and do it!

    If there was ever a time to tread a little lighter on the resource, this is surely it.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  17. #17
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    Default Bounties

    There used to be a bounty on rainbows, dollies, and bald eagles. This to help the comm guys long before sport fishing was popular. Part of the theory was that the rainbow and dollies were eating the salmon eggs and of course the eagles ate fish straight up. The F&G guys don't like to reflect on those days when they thought - like today -that they knew a lot about the science of fish management.

    Turned out not to be a good thing on all counts and in some cases the bows and dollies actually helped the salmon by killing off some of the other predators of the eggs like the egg sucking leeches.

    Situations in nature are seldom as simple and straight foreward as they appear. All the heavy rainbow fishing in the Kenai may actually be harming the salmon runs down there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    You do know there used to be a bounty on the Dollies, don't you? Rainbow populations have exploded due to the recent regs on No Bait, No Retention and that nonsense, more now than ever before. Countless millions of smolt are eaten by freshwater predatory fish. Don't need a study to tell me what I already know. Many have asked what can be done. Well....I am saying this can be done, and....you still get to keep on fishing. That's all.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  18. #18
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    Default Rain

    Finally! Getting some rain in the valley- next 3 days will tell a lot as to what the return really looks like. Unless there's a flood of fish through the weir in Deshka, and rollers all over in the Big Su, its time to throttle back big time. All this is only a fix for this year's escapement, though, whatever that may be. I'd like to see mandatory genetic or scale sampling of ALL ocean caught chinook salmon so we can log the sources of the fish being caught. With a problem of this scale, the commercial boys need to get their heads out of the sand and justify their catch. I'm not talking bout Cook Inlet here; we need to look at Kodiak, False Pass, the winter feeder king fishery, and the pollock fleet. All sources of salmon mortality need to be considered, and identified to be able to bring them back...

    Who knows, low returns may be just part of a natural flux up and down that is greater than the efforts of man to change. I'm not ready to say that, though, as long as tens of thousands of kings are being killed at sea with no origin identified, and runs throughout Alaska are crashing.

  19. #19
    Member FishGod's Avatar
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    Default Growing genetic data

    The genetic baseline data is growing by the week. Fish have been sampled from Cali., Wash., Oregon, Russia, Canada and all over Alaska. More time and samples are needed, but they are coming.
    Your bait stinks and your boat is ugly

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    Default here we are

    OPPORTUNITY, OPPORTUNITY, OPPORTUNITY.

    I just received word that the BOF turned down my Slikok Creek petition when only 24 and 16 females spawned in the system. So what drives ADF&G - who the heck knows but the word OPPORTUNITY comes to mind.

    I am glad to see people want some good discussion. I have not looked at the data so cannot comment on what action is required.

    The following was published in the Journal of Nature. I posted this on another thread but thought people should get two chances to see it. The idea is that if all your eggs are in one basket then the risk of closures increases dramatically. Not taking action to protect diversity in discrete populations leads to this result. This is from Ray Hilborne, a world renowned expert for the UW FRI.

    Analysis of over 50 years of data on sockeye salmon returns to the rivers of Bristol Bay, Alaska, shows that the fact that this important commercial fishery is made up of several hundred discrete populations has been a stabilizing factor for overall fish populations. This is a manifestation of the portfolio effect - named by analogy with risk-spreading in financial markets - and suggests that fisheries management policies should aim to minimize the homogenizing effects of hatcheries on genetic diversity, maintain habitat networks, and protect weak stocks from over-harvesting in mixed stock fisheries. The cover shows adult sockeye salmon spawning in Hidden Creek of the Wood River system of Bristol Bay, August 2008. Photo credit: Michael

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