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Thread: 366 Alaskan and 9.3WSM

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    Default 366 Alaskan and 9.3WSM

    Kabluewy and AlleninAlaska, I was reading some archived stuff and wondered how these projects turned out?

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    Still haven't purchased a barrel for mine. I have to quit being so busy.

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    Default 366 Alaskan

    The reamer was delivered quickly to Pac-Nor from Pacific Tools. They sent me a drawing with all the specs of the reamer/chamber. The barrel was installed, and my project is on its way to the gunsmith's shop in Kenai - for completion. I want the stock to be bedded if necessary, and the trigger made right before I even fire it. As you probably know, these things always take more time than estimated. Mostly it's getting the gunsmith to make it a prioirity without charging extra for a rush job.

    After talking to Chris at Pac-Nor, I decided to leave my reamer with him for a while to see if anyone wanted to have a barrel made in this wildcat. The deal is that I will get a small credit toward my next purchase, in exchange for each chamber they cut with my reamer - no extra charge to Pac-Nor's customer. I think this is fair since the reamer was expensive. I think this is a good deal for someone wanting to have a rifle in the class of the 9.3x64, but with standard 2.5" belted Mag brass and .532 bolt face. I also recommend my regular gunsmith in Kenai for the job, if that's a preferance. I'll just have the reamer shipped to him. That way, the barrel choice is not limited to Pac-Nor. There are several other good barrel makers who offer 9.3mm, but I have been satisfied with Pac-Nor. Take your choice, Douglas, Lilja, Kreiger, Walther, etc. Just remember that it's not fair to bump your project ahead of mine.

    I will be testing the rifle as soon as practical, and give some specific info then about the performance. I have to round up a cronograph in the meantime.

    Best Regards.

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    Question 366 Kabluewy...

    I'm still interested in this 366 of yours I just don't have an action yet. I have no problem with Pac-Nor barrels, I'm sure they're good, I would just prefer they put it together with their barrel. Do they do that there? I would like the action trued and lapped if they do that stuff. How much metal work will Pac-Nor do in house? Also. do you know the barrel diameter of their barrels? I have a good chronograph if there's a way we could limk up this summer. Did you say Redding made a set of dies? Are they stamped 366 Alaskan? Thanks and good shootin'.

    Murphy

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    http://www.pac-nor.com/


    They do good work. Have used several of their barrels.

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    Default 366 Ak

    Murphy,
    One of the reasons I like the services of Pac-Nor is because they will install their barrels on my receiver, and they true and lapp. They also provide pre-fitted barrels, barrel blanks, etc. The guys who do the work are very experienced and helpful. They do some other metal work, but you will need to discuss specifics with them. Their barrels are offerd in a variety of contours.

    Redding makes the dies. My dies are stamped 9.3/338, but I had Pac-Nor stamp the barrel 366 Alaskan. I didn't care what the dies had stamped on them so long as they worked. It took a while to get them, because they don't keep a supply on the shelf. I suppose Redding will stamp whatever you want on the dies. Ask them.

    A little history: I think this got momentum from Craig Boddington, who worked with a gunsmith in Texas named Sisk, who in turn worked with Dave Kiff of Pacific Tools and Guages in Oregon, who collaberated with Redding to make sure the specs were compatible. I think Craig intended to write an article about it, but I don't know if he did. Anyway, I benefitted from all that, because I didn't have to worry about whether the dies and chamber reamer were compatible. Nor did I have to pay for custom tools at Redding. Apparantly Craig already did that. This all may go back further, but I don't know about that, and I'm not absolutely sure about what I said above. It's just an assembly of the bits and pieces of info I heard. Now, it seems odd that this wildcat hasn't been more common. I have heard of others who have thought of it, but I haven't heard of anyone other than Boddington who actually did it. I'm not even sure Boddington did it, but that is what i was told by reliable sources such as Dave.

    I decided to give my rifle the name of 366 Alaskan, mostly because it seemed approriate.

    Keep us informed, thanks.

  7. #7

    Default Question for the experts.

    Sorry if this has been asked or mentioned before but I did not see this specified in this thread. What Cartridge is the 366 Alaskan based off of and what type of balistics are you expecting? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by mntmaster
    Sorry if this has been asked or mentioned before but I did not see this specified in this thread. What Cartridge is the 366 Alaskan based off of and what type of balistics are you expecting? Thanks
    The 366 Alaskan is the 338 Win Mag necked up to 9.3mm, with no other change. I'm thinking it will produce 2600 fps from a 285 gr bullet, but that is yet to be proven. I think it should easily duplicate the performance of the 9.3x64 Brenneke, or exceed the 9.3x62 by 200 - 300 fps. The Nosler manual or web site has info on loading the 9.3x64 cartridge.

    Regards.

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    John Barness and Charlie Sisk did come out with a 9.3mm wildcat, but based on the 350 Rem mag necked up. They called it the 9.3 BS (Barnes Sisk) and John wrote it up in Handloader last fall as I recall. I read about it on a flight down south.

    Don't recall reading about a 9.3X338 colaboration between Boddington and Sisk.

    I'd imagine the 9.3X338 will slightly best the 350 Norma mag, so say 232 gr nearing 3000 fps, and 286 gr right around 2600 fps.

    It's a foregone conclusion that it will be a highly effective round!

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    I was thinking of building a .375 Taylor, but this sounds much more interesting!

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    Smile

    By the By, there is a 9.3-358 Norma called the 366 Barbie and a 9.3-416 Rigby called a 366 DGW. Both come out of Maine! And I'll wager Charlie Sisk has a whole lot more 9.3 wildcats somewhere.

    I love it! There can't be too many 9.3s

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    I reread the 9.3 BS article, and yes Charlie does have a 9.3 Sisk which is the 8mm rem mag necked up, or 416 rem mag necked down.

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    well I have made a number of wildcats on the 9.3 bullet and they are a 9.3 gibbs a 9.3/338win a 9.3/300win a 9.3/remington long mag and a 9.3 remington ultra magnum.... the 338 should give you about 2700 fps with the 286 and 2800 with the speer 270 grain bullet.. I am sure it will perform as well as the 9.3x64 round and this is a might fine round equal to the 375 H & H in every respect.. My fellow hunter you have a very very powerful rifle.. I would try reloader 19 and probably the reloader 22 in this case.. you know Sweden has the best of powders.. trixie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabluewy
    Murphy,
    One of the reasons I like the services of Pac-Nor is because they will install their barrels on my receiver, and they true and lapp. They also provide pre-fitted barrels, barrel blanks, etc. The guys who do the work are very experienced and helpful. They do some other metal work, but you will need to discuss specifics with them. Their barrels are offerd in a variety of contours.

    Redding makes the dies. My dies are stamped 9.3/338, but I had Pac-Nor stamp the barrel 366 Alaskan. I didn't care what the dies had stamped on them so long as they worked. It took a while to get them, because they don't keep a supply on the shelf. I suppose Redding will stamp whatever you want on the dies. Ask them.

    A little history: I think this got momentum from Craig Boddington, who worked with a gunsmith in Texas named Sisk, who in turn worked with Dave Kiff of Pacific Tools and Guages in Oregon, who collaberated with Redding to make sure the specs were compatible. I think Craig intended to write an article about it, but I don't know if he did. Anyway, I benefitted from all that, because I didn't have to worry about whether the dies and chamber reamer were compatible. Nor did I have to pay for custom tools at Redding. Apparantly Craig already did that. This all may go back further, but I don't know about that, and I'm not absolutely sure about what I said above. It's just an assembly of the bits and pieces of info I heard. Now, it seems odd that this wildcat hasn't been more common. I have heard of others who have thought of it, but I haven't heard of anyone other than Boddington who actually did it. I'm not even sure Boddington did it, but that is what i was told by reliable sources such as Dave.

    I decided to give my rifle the name of 366 Alaskan, mostly because it seemed approriate.

    Keep us informed, thanks.

  14. #14

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    I am wondering how you will go about developing loads for your .366 Alaskan? Do you start with the .338 Win Mag loads and try to keep bullet weight the same, or what?

    I have a Clymer reamer for a .300 Win Mag necked up to .338 The extra .18 or so which the .338 sacrifices to neck is what I am after. Seems like the same bullet weight in a larger caliber will yield lower pressure due to smaller bearing area.

    I guess once I cut the chamber and headspace the rifle, I will tie it to a tire and trigger it with a string. Start with a Max .300 win load for .220 grainer using a .338 225 grain bullet. From there, I guess its load table extrapolation and looking for pressure signs. Use that tire with all new loads.

    I contacted Barnes Bullets about work-up-loads. They offered no advice. Must be a liability thing. So, what are you guys doing to get load data for your wildcats?

    How will you form your cases? Just run them through your resizing die to neck up and then fireform? Or is fireforming even necessary? Is your cartridge a straight neck up job with no other different dimensions from the .338wm case?

    I have a Redding .300 mag comp seating die and a neck bushing sizing die. I have made a custom bushing for the neck sizer and should be able to cut a standard .300wm seating die with the reamer. I did this once before with an Ackley Improved reamer on a .30-06 seating die. Apparently RCBS does not case-harden their seating dies, just the sizers.

    I cut the AI chamber myself on an old remington barrel I had. It was a great deal of fun, *if you like doing machine tool work by hand*.


    I would sure love to get a better grip on load workups for wildcat cartridges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lester

    I guess once I cut the chamber and headspace the rifle, I will tie it to a tire and trigger it with a string. Start with a Max .300 win load for .220 grainer using a .338 225 grain bullet. From there, I guess its load table extrapolation and looking for pressure signs. Use that tire with all new loads.
    Why not start at 5% less for a max 220 grain load and work up? Better safe than sorry

    So, what are you guys doing to get load data for your wildcats?
    The Ackley versions you just start out with close to max loads of the bullet you plan on shooting and than work up. There is a 2 book compilation on the market called Wildcat Cartridges. Lot's of good data. I also am a subscriber to Ammo Guide.

    http://ammoguide.com/

    You can also do a Google search for load data. Several web sites might show up such as Reloadersnest, load Your Own, Beartooth Bullets and on and on.


    How will you form your cases? Just run them through your resizing die to neck up and then fireform? Or is fireforming even necessary?
    I like to fireform using Unique powder and a wax plug.

  16. #16

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    Thanks for your reply Alan. Aside from calling a couple of bullet companies, this is my first inquiry. The AI data is out there readily available, but I don't recall reading any articles, anywhere, about how to workup loads for a wildcat cartridge. I understand about starting below max in load development, but am somewhat spooked by the magnum cases need to operate at near max pressures or risk detonation.

    I have Hornady, Sierra, Speer, Barnes, and Accurate Arms reloading manuals to refer to. A .358 Norma is just about the same case. Likely, I could split the diference between the .300wm and the .358nm and be okay; but, I will have to do a LOT of comparisons and research before trusting that bit of intuition.

    Similarly, there is a lot of data for the 30-338 out there now since Weatherby began chambering it. Comparing standard `06 loads with that data in the same bullet would likely show the relationships I suspect. Not like any of this is rocket science, but it is interesting to this first-timer.

    Thanks for the links, I know about Beartooth but the others are new to me. I am experienced in benchrest reloading techniques, and tuning rifles for accuracy, but have never looked to a wildcat before to meet my shooting/hunting goals. This project is one I will take up seriously sometime after October.



    Thanks again.

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    Talking 366 Alaskan load development

    Quote Originally Posted by lester
    I am wondering how you will go about developing loads for your .366 Alaskan? I would sure love to get a better grip on load workups for wildcat cartridges. So, what are you guys doing to get load data for your wildcats?

    Answer: Some interpolation may be necessary, but very little. We have a variety of good data for the 358 Norma, and the 375 Taylor wildcat. I plan to start with conservative and forgiving powder such as H4895. It is my opinion that 358 Norma loads will be good starting loads. Also there are some load data software programs. I have a friend who has one, which I plan to use for confirmation before I pull the trigger. Also, based on studying the data available, it looks like it would be difficult to get too much IMR or Hodgen 4350 powder in the case and still seat the bullet.

    Do you start with the .338 Win Mag loads and try to keep bullet weight the same, or what?

    Answer: No, 338 loads may be one reference, but as said above, the 358 Norma and 375 Taylor loads will be the main reference.

    Seems like the same bullet weight in a larger caliber will yield lower pressure due to smaller bearing area.

    Answer: Yes this is probably true, and most likely I値l start with 250 gr 9.3mm bullets and compare loads for the 358 in 250 gr, and 375 in 260 gr.

    How will you form your cases? Just run them through your resizing die to neck up and then fireform? Or is fireforming even necessary? Is your cartridge a straight neck up job with no other different dimensions from the .338wm case?

    Answer: The 366 Alaskan is just necked up with no other change from the 338 brass. No fire forming necessary.
    I知 not really an advocate of wildcats. I think they are too much trouble and expense, and generally unnecessary. For example, if I had known that Ruger would be introducing the 375 Ruger, I doubt that I would have done the 366 wildcat. What痴 the point? However, from a pure standpoint of optimizing the 9.3mm, I would use the 375 Ruger brass necked down to .366 instead of the 338 WM brass necked up. That is all with knowledge today, that was not available when I made the decision to use 338 brass as the basis. It is my opinion that the new 375 Ruger (the cartridge and the brass) will be close to perfection by design.

    Also, IMO there is only so much speed which is actually useful, and the capacity of the new 375 Ruger brass will produce all that is needed. The RUMs, 8mm RM, Weatherby 378 brass, 338 Lapua brass, Dakotas, Jeffery, Rigby, are all excessive, except maybe for 45 caliber and larger, and only then for African big stuff.

    As long as I am taking liberties with opinion, I値l say that I think the 375 Ruger brass will immediately make obsolete all of the magnum brass as we have known, including the short magnums. I know that is a big statement, but I値l qualify it. I知 talking about calibers between 7mm and .423. The belt may still be necessary for headspace on .458. Also, I知 not talking about cartridges with 30-06 base/rim diameter, or smaller, or rimmed cartridges. There will still be a use for them, but all others (magnums) in the 2.5 or shorter class, and most of the longer ones too, could simply vanish and not be missed.

    Best Regards,
    KB
    Last edited by Kabluewy; 07-31-2006 at 18:07.

  18. #18

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    I haven't heard about the .375 Ruger.

    We built a .35 Whelen for my son. I think an Ackley Improved version would be perfect for Alaska. 5 rounds in the magazine, about 2500 fps with a 250 grain bullet. The ability to load small game loads using .357 pistol bullets and cast bullets. Maybe somebody makes a Marble's type insert enabling you to shoot .38/.357's in a .35 Whelen?

    I agree about most of the new cartridges.
    I still think a .454 Casull is "new".

    I bought a .338 RUM barrel and loading setup that I later sold. Just seemed too long and too big of a cartridge. I rebarreled a .300 RUM I bought to .338Win after I got it for the same reasons.

    I think the RUMs, .338 Lapua and big Weatherby's have their place in the 1000yd benchrest and longrange hunting circles. (Not that I can buy into shooting game 1000 yds distant off a surveyor's tripod; but some guys do.) If people like shooting the shorties and longies; more power to them.

    I'm thinking I can get more power out of a .300/.338 by simply recutting a standard .338 chamber. I have lots of brass for both. Neck up the .300 or fireform the .338; we'll see.


    Thanks for the reply KB

    If that .375Rug is a non-belted .375 H&H, it should enable one more ctg in most magazines, I guess. That alone would be popular. Might also motivate some belt removal tool accessory for neck turning tools. I remember reading some article years ago about a guy to did a wildcat using magnum brass, but he turned the belts off his brass using a lathe. Guess somethings aren't so new under the sun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lester
    I haven't heard about the .375 Ruger.

    If that .375Rug is a non-belted .375 H&H, it should enable one more ctg in most magazines, I guess. That alone would be popular. Might also motivate some belt removal tool accessory for neck turning tools. I remember reading some article years ago about a guy to did a wildcat using magnum brass, but he turned the belts off his brass using a lathe. Guess somethings aren't so new under the sun.
    Lester,

    I don't think the brass diameter of the 375 Ruger will enable fitting another round in most magazines. The only things the 375 Ruger has in common with the 375 H&H is the bullet diameter, and the case head diameter of .532", as I remember.

    Also as I remember, the body of the belted magnum brass is .511 just ahead of the belt. This means that turning off the belt would simply ruin the brass.

    Measured at the same place, the new 375 Ruger brass is .532, and has a normal taper, and since the case body outside diameter is .021" larger than standard belted brass, the 375 Ruger has slightly more powder capacity.

    Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you.

    KB

  20. #20

    Default little advantage

    Lester,

    Among the folk who've AI'd their .35 Whelen, most agree that it really wasn't worth the effort. As far as the numbers you gave, I get 100fps more out of 250 gr bullets from standard Whelen.

    As far as being an ideal Alaskan cartridge, I think so. There are a lot of folk out there who disagree with me, though, because it isn't really the cartridge for shooting more than 300 yards and they can't abide not being able to shoot into the next time zone.
    He fears his fate too much or his desserts are small who fears on just one touch to win or lose it all.

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