Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Heads up.... Kenai king research

  1. #1
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516

    Default Heads up.... Kenai king research

    Spoke to the lead chinook bio in Soldotna about the early run research planned for 2010.

    They've got 350 radio transmitters available to implant (trans-esophageal) into every fish caught in the tidewater test net.

    Early run kings will be sampled for age, sex, length, run-timing, and DNA.

    So if anyone catches a Kenai king this season (yes, even into July) sporting an antenna sticking out of its throat/mouth, make sure you contact ADFG about recovery of the transmitter.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,073

    Default

    Thanks Doc, I will do my best to spread the word. I am glad to hear that F&G is doing this type of study. Now lets hope they catch 350 fish in the test net!

  3. #3
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Aberdeen WA
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    That's gonna be the tough part.... catching enough fish to deploy the available transmitters.

    Historic catch in the test net program is inextricably linked to the run-size entering the river. The poor run-size forecast does not bode well for deploying 350 transmitters. The trend in the first 8 days of counting (reflecting the low end forecast) certainly doesn't do much to raise those expectations.

    I know in the original Bendock studies, researchers pooled the transmitter data from multiple years (1990 and 1991 for the early run). It's possible the unused transmitters could be saved for 2011. Not sure if the design of the currrent study would allow that.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,519

    Default makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    That's gonna be the tough part.... catching enough fish to deploy the available transmitters.

    Historic catch in the test net program is inextricably linked to the run-size entering the river. The poor run-size forecast does not bode well for deploying 350 transmitters. The trend in the first 8 days of counting (reflecting the low end forecast) certainly doesn't do much to raise those expectations.

    I know in the original Bendock studies, researchers pooled the transmitter data from multiple years (1990 and 1991 for the early run). It's possible the unused transmitters could be saved for 2011. Not sure if the design of the currrent study would allow that.
    The cost of this program is substantial - cost of the tags, surveys of the river via air, and a host of other costs. It would seem to me that adding an additional crew just for tagging would be a wise use of money rather than not getting enough sample size in a given year.

    Also, what is the objective of this program? Is it to check the sonar counter? Look at spawner distribution? What exactly? That makes a difference on the importance of meeting the sample size requirements and the distribution of tags over time.

  5. #5
    Member TYNMON's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Corvallis, Oregon, United States
    Posts
    918

    Default For once I actually aggree w/ Nerka..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    The cost of this program is substantial - cost of the tags, surveys of the river via air, and a host of other costs. It would seem to me that adding an additional crew just for tagging would be a wise use of money rather than not getting enough sample size in a given year.

    Also, what is the objective of this program? Is it to check the sonar counter? Look at spawner distribution? What exactly? That makes a difference on the importance of meeting the sample size requirements and the distribution of tags over time.
    Wow, we catually aggree on something Ken,
    First question I asked ADFG when I heard they were tagging chinook via the in river test nets.... Do they have a seperate taggin crew... The netting crew can be very busy at time and with their current policy of completing the entire drift before pulling the net is a DIRECT conflict w/ what would create the best results, due to very stressed tagged king salmon... I would be very wary of the results of this program due to the logistics due to tagginf procedures and methods.. Additionally, if things keep warming up at this rate.. Warm temperatures will have a serious dampener on the results from these tagged fish.... P.S. interestingly ADFG is now on board w/ this project, since USFWS has been proposing it for > 5 years now and ADFG has shown zero interest in the past....

  6. #6

    Default Blah, Blah, Blah

    Quote Originally Posted by TYNMON View Post
    Wow, we catually aggree on something Ken,
    First question I asked ADFG when I heard they were tagging chinook via the in river test nets.... Do they have a seperate taggin crew... The netting crew can be very busy at time and with their current policy of completing the entire drift before pulling the net is a DIRECT conflict w/ what would create the best results, due to very stressed tagged king salmon... I would be very wary of the results of this program due to the logistics due to tagginf procedures and methods.. Additionally, if things keep warming up at this rate.. Warm temperatures will have a serious dampener on the results from these tagged fish.... P.S. interestingly ADFG is now on board w/ this project, since USFWS has been proposing it for > 5 years now and ADFG has shown zero interest in the past....
    What current policy of completing a drift before pulling the nets? Do you know what you're talking about? The crew pulls the net after certain factors are considered when fish are in the net...if they net one early in the drift, they pull the net earlier...if they net one, then soon another and another they pull it when they reach a predetermined numer of "hits"......if they get nothing, or net one at the end of the drift area, then they pull the net at the end of the area. Given the poor run this year, the Dept. probably will increase tagging to get more tags out. Ty, the extra netting crew has to do with sample size, not procedure. Do you think the Dept. would invest all this money into this project to risk tagging stressed out kings? Ridiculous.

    The Dept. has no control over air/water temperature....should they all of a sudden stop this project because it gets warm? By the way, water temp. on the Kenai is not warm, don't know what you're talking about.

    P.S. Your statements are incorrect. The Dept. has been trying to do this project for years, and finally has dedicated funds to do it. It has finally hapenned and all you can do is make snide remarks about how funny it is that they are now doing it (insert conspiracy theory here). If the USFWS thought it was that important (and they have a bigger budget) then why didn't they do it already? Instead of chiding the Dept. for doing a well deserved study, why aren't you more positive and supportive? From reading all your posts on this subject, I would expect you to be elated.

  7. #7
    Member TYNMON's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Corvallis, Oregon, United States
    Posts
    918

    Default Interesting points and personal attacks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Papi View Post
    What current policy of completing a drift before pulling the nets? Do you know what you're talking about? The crew pulls the net after certain factors are considered when fish are in the net...if they net one early in the drift, they pull the net earlier...if they net one, then soon another and another they pull it when they reach a predetermined numer of "hits"......if they get nothing, or net one at the end of the drift area, then they pull the net at the end of the area. Given the poor run this year, the Dept. probably will increase tagging to get more tags out. Ty, the extra netting crew has to do with sample size, not procedure. Do you think the Dept. would invest all this money into this project to risk tagging stressed out kings? Ridiculous.

    The Dept. has no control over air/water temperature....should they all of a sudden stop this project because it gets warm? By the way, water temp. on the Kenai is not warm, don't know what you're talking about.

    P.S. Your statements are incorrect. The Dept. has been trying to do this project for years, and finally has dedicated funds to do it. It has finally hapenned and all you can do is make snide remarks about how funny it is that they are now doing it (insert conspiracy theory here). If the USFWS thought it was that important (and they have a bigger budget) then why didn't they do it already? Instead of chiding the Dept. for doing a well deserved study, why aren't you more positive and supportive? From reading all your posts on this subject, I would expect you to be elated.
    No reason to get all fluffed up... From what I have observed the test netting was done in a manner that best suited optimium catch not fish handling.... My observations are spot on.... When there are not that many fish you are correct this is not a concern... However when there are multiple sockeye and kings in the nets which is not uncommon, then kings that are destined to be radio tagged should be removed from the net as quickly as possible, not when the perdetermined drift is over...

    Another crew to tag fish just plain makes sence... The crews time will be burnt up inserting radio tags when they should be maximizing drifts.. Do I really need to defend this???

    Water temperature not a factor??? Seriously?? Um July and August the Kenai can easily exceed 55 degree's... This can be a serious concern w/ lactic acid build up... The dept ceartainly cannot control temps but it can ceartainly NOT tag fish when temperatures exceed a predetermined temperature..

    Do I really need to list projects were the fish have and still are handled poorly bu ADFG.. Do u want me to create a list of specifics??? Is that really nessisary???

    I an elated that there is a king telemetry project and very concerned about specific logistics as they have a direct impact on the results... As petaining to your USFWS comments.. there was room in the their budgets in the past for telemtry... But, they did not have ADFG blessing.. They just don't randomly conduct research esp w/out cooperation and coordination of ADFG... Again, do I need to explain this and defend myself??

    I have many friends in ADFG and these are hardly attacks on character.. These are concerns that I have about these projects because the data will DIRECTLY affect future management actions.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TYNMON View Post
    No reason to get all fluffed up... From what I have observed the test netting was done in a manner that best suited optimium catch not fish handling.... My observations are spot on.... When there are not that many fish you are correct this is not a concern... However when there are multiple sockeye and kings in the nets which is not uncommon, then kings that are destined to be radio tagged should be removed from the net as quickly as possible, not when the perdetermined drift is over...
    My apologies, let me explain. I forgot to mention the time limit as well. When only one or a few fish are caught early on, then after a short predetermined amount of time, the net is pulled and the fish worked up regardless of where they are in the drift. Now you can keep complaining about this procedure, but if you have ever drift-gillnetted before, you know if you quickly pull a net after hitting the first fish, you more than likely lose the fish, and have to motor up and start the drift all over again. It's a balance of when it's time to pull the net to catch fish, maximizing capture and fish health that's considered, and the Dept. does a good job of it.

    [/QUOTE]Another crew to tag fish just plain makes sence... The crews time will be burnt up inserting radio tags when they should be maximizing drifts.. Do I really need to defend this???[/QUOTE]

    You're right, another crew to tag makes sense when the run is big! In case you haven't noticed, the run is non-existent, and the cumulative netting catch since 5/16 is only around 20 kings so far this year. They aren't stressing the fish. Also, their goal isn't to "maximize" drifts...as I said, when it's busy, they pull the net when there is a predetermined number of fish which has ranged from 3-5. It is a species apportionment netting project, not a test net/CPUE index!!! Fish health matters! Get it right!

    [/QUOTE]Water temperature not a factor??? Seriously?? Um July and August the Kenai can easily exceed 55 degree's... This can be a serious concern w/ lactic acid build up... The dept ceartainly cannot control temps but it can ceartainly NOT tag fish when temperatures exceed a predetermined temperature..[/QUOTE]

    No it can't....in the middle of a study?? That's what peer review and the discussion is for. What agency stops tagging fish in the middle of a study when the water temp gets a little warm? And again, the water temps in the Kenai currently are not warm. There is massive snow melt coming out of the Killey and the lake. Are you saying they shouldn't be tagging right now because it's warm, please explain.

    [/QUOTE]Do I really need to list projects were the fish have and still are handled poorly bu ADFG.. Do u want me to create a list of specifics??? Is that really nessisary???[/QUOTE]

    You really do. Yes. Yes. I am embarassed for you when I read these questions. Given your experience, please describe where you have observed/encountered/or partaken in poor handling of fish by/as a member of the Dept. And please forgive my smirk as I recall some of your release techniques as you were guiding on the Kenai a few years ago.....

    [/QUOTE]I an elated that there is a king telemetry project and very concerned about specific logistics as they have a direct impact on the results... As petaining to your USFWS comments.. there was room in the their budgets in the past for telemtry... But, they did not have ADFG blessing.. They just don't randomly conduct research esp w/out cooperation and coordination of ADFG... Again, do I need to explain this and defend myself??[/QUOTE]

    They don't? What about the Funny River weir? The Crooked Creek/Kasilof Steelhead/Coho study? The Hidden Lake Lake trout study? The Anchor River juvenile salmonid study? Since when did the USFWS ever need ADFG's cooperation to do a study. That just doesn't make sense. If they really wanted to do it, they would've...period.

    [/QUOTE] I have many friends in ADFG and these are hardly attacks on character.. These are concerns that I have about these projects because the data will DIRECTLY affect future management actions.[/QUOTE]

    Ty, I can't really say what I want with reference to the first part of your first sentence, but maybe you can catch my drift.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    fishhook, ak
    Posts
    1,124

    Default

    i am certain that USFWS needs permits from adf&g to do any studies involving capture of live fish. coordination is essential.

  10. #10

    Default cooperation

    Quote Originally Posted by andweav View Post
    i am certain that USFWS needs permits from adf&g to do any studies involving capture of live fish. coordination is essential.
    If by cooperation you mean obtaining a simple fish handling permit, then yes, ADFG has been very cooperative. And at no time has ADFG denied the USFWS a permit to do a king study on the Kenai.

  11. #11

    Default

    I spoke with the ADF&G research boat yesterday and so far they've tagged 20 kings. They've got a long way to go to hit 350.

  12. #12
    Member TYNMON's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Corvallis, Oregon, United States
    Posts
    918

    Default

    You're right, another crew to tag makes sense when the run is big! In case you haven't noticed, the run is non-existent, and the cumulative netting catch since 5/16 is only around 20 kings so far this year. They aren't stressing the fish. Also, their goal isn't to "maximize" drifts...as I said, when it's busy, they pull the net when there is a predetermined number of fish which has ranged from 3-5. It is a species apportionment netting project, not a test net/CPUE index!!! Fish health matters! Get it right!

    EXACTLY.. Another crew dedicated to catching fish, that has a schedule that is not randomly selected to MAXIMIZE catch and minimize handling MAKES SENCE...


    You really do. Yes. Yes. I am embarassed for you when I read these questions. Given your experience, please describe where you have observed/encountered/or partaken in poor handling of fish by/as a member of the Dept. And please forgive my smirk as I recall some of your release techniques as you were guiding on the Kenai a few years ago.....

    Wow, interesting.. You remain anonynamous and continue to defend things that don't really need to be defended.. But here you go.. Tell me this "oh wise jedi ADFG master."

    Sockeye ASL's are taken "out of water" on a burlap sack at Russian River weir then tossed upstream as far as possible to so called wake them up so they do not wash back up on the weir...

    When I first encountered PIT and Radio Tagging at the fish wheels at RM 19.5 sockeye were being tagged again, "out of water."

    Encountered fish wheels on the Kuskokwim that were not checked on a regular basis and the brailer box's absolutely "stuffed" full of fish..


    As far as the personal attacks on how I catch and release fish.. Please fill me in on examples of how I have mishandled fish as a guide or a fisheries proffessional.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •