new lite weight surface drive available for small freighters
There is now a new surface drive available that's lite enough for small
sq. backed canoes.It's made by Copperhead Manufacturing in Louisiana.It weighs 80# and is 6.5 HP.There is a video on their website showing the engine
pushing a sq.back canoe 15 mph with 2 people on board. I don't know if they have plans for a larger engine.How about 10 HP that weighs 90#on a esquif 17?
That would be just about right.
Originally Posted by kandik
light weight motor
it could be a great motor on the larger canoe's but on the smaller like the
"" 19 ft grummen " I think it would be too top heavy, an to much motor "" in "" the canoe not on it, loose to much space an the few times I run large water I like to sit down an run the canoe
small surface drive
In response to Sid: My surface drive on an HB is no more top heavy than
a honda on a lifter.The motor is no more taking up space in the boat than an
ordinary outboard, maybe less so since an outboard and lifter have 2 lever arms and the SD has only one.Also one of of the main attractions of the SD
is that it behaves like an outboard.You can sit or stand.I rarely stand when
running mine.I find them no harder to run a 100 mile day than an outboard.
Light weight sd
You are correct on the 2 handles an as I have not tried an HB type canoe yet, I was refuring to how it would act on my
19 ft Grummen
I think it would give me a problem on most of the streams I run [small] on some boats [DUCK HUNTER ] IT WOULD BE GREAT
Sid, What motor do you run on your Grumman? If you have a lift and a 15 hp evinrude I think you will go over the 90# mark.
Originally Posted by Sid
motor an lift weight
yes it is at that weight or more, the motor is on top of the transom, the thing I don't know about is where the tiller is on the light weight SD? does it come in at the center of the motor or on the side like most of the outboards if it comes in on center of the transom you can't use the rear seat of the grumman you would have to put a seat forward on the grumman 19 FT
the weight of the motor is not the problem I just don't want to loose any more floor space than I have, it is as you said small frighter but I can carry it some, not far but some on my back, all throw I am getting kind of old for it,, it won't be long befor I will not be able to carry it, when empty with out lift it comes in at about 125 lbs I think [ I put runners on the bottom canoe to help potect the bottom from rocks I don't see untill after I hit them, an more stability, I need it ]
Lite weight SD
Sid / I just looked at the web site and I think the tiller arm does come
out of the side not the center. Also , the fuel tank on top of the motor
can be removed as I assume anybody using the motor would be using a
here you go
This is the link for it. The canoe is the 4th on down. Looks to be kind of small and the motor is causing the operator to sit a thrid of the way up in the canoe. Like stated eariler, might be good for a frieghter. Sound pretty loud as well.
Has it's uses, but....
I looked through their demo material on the website. It doesn't look bad for those uses, but also doesn't look too practical for things like what I know Sid and I run. Lots of rocks rather than mud.
The remove fuel option would be the ONLY way to go. Putting the fuel so high up would be adding weight way too high up for a narrower boat. On the narrow rivers I run, I would have that prop in the dirt bank or into boulders all over the place. We often have to weave around boulders with the engine and cut right next to banks where you really don't want something sticking out that far from the stern.
Another issue I see would be cleaning weeds off. Yes, they say they have a "weed" setup that could/should help getting them in the first place, but the kind of weeds we do run into hang on strong. with a regular outboard setup, you can just tilt the motor up and clean it or just reach behind the stern to pull them out. There's no way your are reaching anywhere near the prop on these SD's to clean weeds. It would require exiting the boat which would be a major pain.
I'm curious about the durability of the drive shaft with it being so long getting to the prop. It seems that the longer you get out there, the more prone it would be to fatigue from loads put on the prop (say you hit a rock with a blade of the prop like we do all the time).
The power doesn't look to be there if loaded down. Yeah, it works with a whopping two people in the boat. Add in a moose or more plus hunting gear and a camp and I doubt you are going to be moving all that much.
o.k. for rocks
I run a 18 HP surface drive on a hudson bay.First , the mud buddy SD's
were designed for and tested in the rocky rivers of Utah.I've used it extensively on small , rocky tributaries of the Yukon.There is simply no comparison to an outboard, even with a lift, because there's nothing below the hull.I've also used it a lot in steams narrower than the boats length.Brush,
stumps,logs,vegetation etc. have almost no effect.Please refer to the mud buddy website. The motors will push a rig at full speed through incredibly thick
weeds.Although I don't like to do it, I've had to do it a few times.I've tried the same thing many times with an OB and lift and was instantly dead in the water
and had 10 pounds of salad on the prop.There's no need to clean off the prop
because I've never seen it accumulate anything.I got a bull up a top secret
slough in Minto flats.The slough was 5 feet wide,6 inches deep,and completely chocked with weeds, branches and stumps.One mile long.
Progress was easy.My buddys Aluminum sq. back with OB and lifter was
useless.The drive shafts are very tough , bounce over obstacles, and are rated for commercial fishing use.Regarding power under load: I ran about 1500 pounds up the Tanana at about 12.5 mph with 80% throttle.I've not noticed any loss of power under load compared to a OB.Also ,I'm curious why nobody with the smaller freighters ever trys out a stumpjumper
longtail.It has a subaru/robin motor, weighs an honest 63 #, is 7 hp and
would be virtually unstoppable.And last , the heavy duty stainless props of SD's make aluminum props look very flimsy.
I am considering trying stumpjumper on an esquif cargo canoe.I will post pictures if I do this, should be ideal on the esquif for very shallow creeks
surface drive motors and props.
The trick to the surface drive motors is their props, and nothing else.
Known as a "chop prop", they are available for outboards that run in choppy waters where the prop functions at least partially out of the water. The standard aluminum props are not the best for our rough conditions. An outboard with a chop prop and a relocated water pick up should be able to run wherever there is water enough to float your boat.
The loudest boat motor I've heard in recent memory, other than airboats, was a surface drive motor, out in the Minto Flats.
The surface drive system may be the latest and greatest to some, but for me, it's only the latest ... hardly the greatest. Outboards can be optimized with careful alterations, i.e., check out the motors on the back of the Yukon 800 race boats. I'm not suggesting a 50 horse Yamaha on a Grumman, simply the technology that makes the combo of a modified outboard, prop and lift to fly or, as conditions warrant, to creep along where the riverboat crowd doesn't go.
I just looked into these motors that run the copperhead surface drive system. It's an LCT motor, and they don't list the HP ratings on their website(copperhead). It's a 6 hp motor that is made in china. I wonder if it would push a 1000 to 1200 lb. load up current like I can with my 9.8 horse tohatsu. From what I've gathered, these motors are extremely cheap to purchase and have a good track record of long lasting durabilty.
Originally Posted by kandik
On another note, did you ever run some sort of prop and skeg protector when running a traditional outboard? Are you aware that the accumulated abuse on a traditional prop will generally last one-two seasons when it was run with a prop protector?
this 208 cc motor (6hp) may just as well have enough torque to push a loaded Esquif or Discovery Sport or Osagian 17 footers up current with a moose and gear on board.........but I'm slightly doubtful.
here is a link to LCT engines:
air cooled outboards are not new
Your ideas are as usual well thought out and usefull.
I've seen the race boats with barely submerged props.They run very shallow
but I think they have a tunnel in front of the prop to provide water.Since canoes don't have that I assume they need the SD prop out back to provide water.
I ran OB's with various lifters and prop protecters for 15 years.My SD
outperforms every prop/lifter arrangement I've had especially in the shallows
and especially up stream.All my attempts with a lifted prop reduced speed
and efficiency.I can't tell [and neither can my gps] any difference in speed or
power in 6 inches or 6 feet of water with a SD.Your idea of a relocated water
pickup is a great one.One of the things that drove me nuts about water cooling.With an air cooled I can forget that forever.
Also ,shallow drive ,air cooled OB's are not "new fangled".Please refer to
Glen Foreman's article on the history of air cooled OB's on the mud buddy
forum.They have a 100 year history.They have been in wide use in asia, africa and the amazon for decades.The original go-devil design was created
by a GI returning from Vietnam where they are in wide use.Many primitive , long ,skinny,dug out canoes on the most remote rivers in the world are powered by simple , air cooled,shallow water OB's for all the reasons I've
mentioned on this site.That's why I'm frankly suprised at the resistence of the freighter crowd when it solves so many problems.
I also hate airboats! I wish they would all go away.I agree that large block
SD's with fancy mufflers are way too loud and have no place in the wild lands.They appeal to the gonzo motor head crowd.The smaller SD's on a bigger freighter aren't bad. Friends tell me they can have an easy conversation up front at higher speed.It isn't overbearing and there might be
a superior muffler to reduce it further.
Mainer in AK / I've broken not one but two Skegs with stainless protecter
attached completely off the motor. Impossible with an air-cooled.
new motor time?
I appreciate this discussion that is going on here; just wanted to say so.
Kandik, don't be discouraged by the less than enthusiastic response here; people (including me and you) are mostly stuck in their ways, whichever way(s) that is.
Mainer, keep on bringing your experience to this thread; you've done a lot and the knowledge you're sharing is invaluable.
I stay tuned into this thread - good stuff. Thanks you guys.
That's good information. The information on the website didn't even hint at how it functions in rocks/gravel, so I figured there was probably a reason for it. I am still very skeptical and definitely would not consider getting one without a through hand's on test.
Originally Posted by kandik
You menting having no problem with speed when loaded, but you also said you were running a 18hp SD, much larger than the ~6hp (at least according what others have posted as the CC-hp conversion....) SD that is advertised on the site provided. I'm curious what the difference in size of your 18hp compared to what are shown on this website. Is there a significant weight difference?
I appreciatte your skepticism about surface drives.I too was very skeptical
until I got one.Invariably the folks I speak with who are doubtfull have never
actually used one.By the way, I hope I wasn't misleading,but I run a 18 HP/
SD on a hudson bay.I only mentioned the 6.5 HP for those with much smaller
boats.I have no idea if they're powerfull enough for toting a moose out.I'll
have to leave that to all the experts on those rigs.
mud buddy surface drive and HB
I've got a 21 HB with a 24 hp Honda powered Scavenger motor - long tail. I like it for my style of boating and would not go back to a prop with a lift. The scavenger is not fast because it has a heavy grain-auger style steel prop. It is virtually indestructable however and will not get damaged by gravel and rocks and can run through any lillies and the thickest bullrush.
I can sit and run it on the long big rivers but I like to stand anyway.
I can run up the Tanana about 8-10 mph with 4-5 guys in the canoe or a few people and lots of camping gear. I have loaded it up to pobably 1500 lbs and crept up the Chatanika at about 6mph.
On the flats with a few people it floats high and light and will go through just a few inches of water.
When i replace it I will get the 18 h.p. mb surface that Kandik has. It seems to be the best of both worlds without any messing with, altering or adding and it will give me all the speed i need. Will cut some of my trip trvel time in half. I'm an outdoorshead, not a motorhead and I want it as simple as possible.
Kandik has a messload of experience with freighter setups and he really likes this one. That tells me alot.
Hey, it's been awhile since I posted around here, but I've been "lurking" from time to time. Always very interesting information to be found here when I stop in...thanks guys.
Originally Posted by kandik
Anyway, I've been looking for a motor for a canoe I recently purchased from a friend of a friend to access some land I have on the Tanana and explore the surrounding area (wood river, minto flats, etc)...this thread got me interested in the Copperhead surface drive, but my boat is a hand made 19' wooden canoe with an easy 1000lb freight capacity, so I figured it would likely be too light in the hp department.
Anyway, I just called Copperhead Manufacturing and talked to Gill. He says they have plans to release a 12hp version of their surface drive in the next few weeks. Should weigh in at about 120lbs. I'm thinking this might be the perfect motor for my boat, and I thought folks here would be interested in the news about Copperhead's new offering.
So, what do folks here think? 12hp and 120lb surface drive on the back of a wooden square stern canoe that's just slightly heavier and more stable than a Grumman 19 footer? Sound like a winning combo for the Tanana valley?