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Thread: Subsistence-Too Broad of a Brush

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    Member AK DUX's Avatar
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    Default Subsistence-Too Broad of a Brush

    RE: They chose to live there thread

    I actually thought about my comments last night...I came back to clarify things and the thread was closed.

    My comments were in fact about native villages/culture only...which I will stand firm on. However, I'm afraid that I used too broad of a brush, and unintentionally sounded like I was including all folks that live in rural areas and all native people. In fact I know some fine folks in both camps. I can speak about what I've seen...and I haven't seen or experienced non-native subsistence. The things I listed were strictly native villages where they're on the government dole living for free AND getting special privledges AND whine about not having more AND abuse their privledges.

    So, if you're self-sufficient (i.e., not getting free money), and subsisting on your own, my apologies and best regards. In fact, it must be tough watching one group of citizens getting everything for free, while you have to carve you're own way.

    Regarding me doing anything about some of the things I've seen...I did go to the Fed F&W. They too know whats going on, but they even had orders from their HQ not to enforce anything unless it was major, such as Pt Hope caribou, and only after they got permission from HQ.
    "We're all here cuz we're not all there"

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    The Government forced welfare on Alaska Natives and took away their lifestyle.

  3. #3
    wolfwatching
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    Goodness, sometimes the lack of thought people have astounds me. I believe the statistical data re federal/state assistance and funding to rural vs. urban areas should be referenced in this discussion if this discussion must continue. State of the art health care, universities, heck – fire service, paved roads, museums, art centers, and crime rates -perhaps rural folks are sick of paying for the lengthy imprisonment of urban heroin addicts. Seriously, it’s one half dozen or the other. To point a finger at rural subsistence hunters and “complain” that they are given too much leeway for their lifestyle is ridiculous. To whine about the tiny part of the pie that goes their way is ridiculous.! Whine about something that matters like the BP oil spill and how much money that will cost not to mention the long term environmental damage. Oh wait! That's too real of an issue..
    If anything, rural communities could use more funding and especially in areas of education and self-determination for the indigenous populace. Honestly, mostly I’m surprised they are so tolerant.. A big thanks to them for sharing this great state! Hopefully someday we can pay them back for the huge mess we’ve made..

  4. #4
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwatching View Post
    Goodness, sometimes the lack of thought people have astounds me. I believe the statistical data re federal/state assistance and funding to rural vs. urban areas should be referenced in this discussion if this discussion must continue..


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwatching View Post
    State of the art health care, universities, heck – fire service, paved roads, museums, art centers, and crime rates -perhaps rural folks are sick of paying for the lengthy imprisonment of urban heroin addicts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwatching View Post
    .
    All of the above are paid for in local borough or municipal property or sales taxes, bonds etc... by those living in the commuinty... where does the rural resident pay for any of it? exactly? must be in the form of the non-existent state sales and income taxes...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK DUX
    The things I listed were strictly native villages where they're on the government dole living for free AND getting special privledges AND whine about not having more AND abuse their privledges.

    AK DUX, with all due respect, no one lives for free. No one. There is a cost to every type of living. If a person is on the dole then it seems that person is judged by people like you as somehow being less of a person, so the cost then is very high in terms of how others may view someone getting food stamps or Native health care. And out of that judging comes resentment and broad generalizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK DUX
    So, if you're self-sufficient (i.e., not getting free money), and subsisting on your own, my apologies and best regards. In fact, it must be tough watching one group of citizens getting everything for free, while you have to carve you're own way.
    Your judging of others continues, and I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you man to man I find it very sad. Is the PFD "free money"? If a single mom with kids is receiving food stamps she doesn't get your "best regards"? Some of the new homes built in Eagle last summer as a result of the massive breakup devastation were built by charitable donations of time and money...do those who live in those homes not get your "best regards" too? What responsibility does someone who contracts out to build and install water and sewer and HUD homes in villages, who works as a laborer for those outfits, assume as part and parcel of providing all these so-called "free" things for rural residents...should they be judged too? Where do you draw this line of judgment?

    It's ironic that you labeled this "too broad a brush" and continue to use that same broad brush. I don't think this thread is gonna be able to stay open DUX, because just like every other when this kind of topic comes up some are gonna jump in and start making broad generalizations and judgments of rural peoples, Native peoples. Too many here have no real inkling of history and how we got to where we are now. Too many are too quick to judge others not based on getting to know them first, but on something like whether or not they may receive govt. assistance, live in a "free" HUD home, read horror stories about how some Native peoples abuse privileges.

    Not personal. Just me being honest with how I view your thoughts.
    Sincerely,


  6. #6
    wolfwatching
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    Not exactly;
    Now, correct me if I’m wrong but we don’t pay income tax because of the oil and gas revenues which in turn are allocated to the various municipalities for various projects considered STATE funded.. Our prisons are both state and federally funded. Also, is it false to say that areas with a small tax base incorporate sales tax instead of property tax to compensate? Taxes are taxes..one half dozen or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    [/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]All of the above are paid for in local borough or municipal property or sales taxes, bonds etc... by those living in the commuinty... where does the rural resident pay for any of it? exactly? must be in the form of the non-existent state sales and income taxes...

  7. #7
    wolfwatching
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    "The statewide capital budget approved by the Legislature in its closing hours early Monday is estimated at $3.1 billion, including about $1 billion of federal money. The budget's earmarks now must survive the veto pen of Gov. Sean Parnell.
    The projects range from new buildings and major highway maintenance work costing tens of millions of dollars to school supplies for individual schools costing much less.
    All told, the tally for Anchorage is $564 million, including federal money, according to the Legislative Finance Division. But that doesn't take into account state projects based here, such as the $18 million renovation of the Boney Courthouse downtown. So exactly how much the Legislature spent on projects in the city isn't fully known yet." ADN
    hmm..Sorry Vince but... Thank goodness for oil, gas, and the grand ol federal gov..


    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    [/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]All of the above are paid for in local borough or municipal property or sales taxes, bonds etc... by those living in the commuinty... where does the rural resident pay for any of it? exactly? must be in the form of the non-existent state sales and income taxes...

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    wolfwatching
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    "
    Hunting and fishing rights are some of the special rights that Native Americans enjoy as a result of the treaties signed between their tribes and the federal government. Historically, hunting and fishing were critically important to Native American tribes. Fish and wildlife were a primary source of food and trade goods, and tribes based their own seasonal movements on fish migrations. In addition, fish and wildlife played a central role in the spiritual and cultural framework of Native American life. As the Court noted, access to fish and wildlife was "not much less necessary to the existence of the Indians than the atmosphere they breathed" (United States v. Winans, 198 U.S. 371, S. Ct. 662, 49 L. Ed. 2d 1089 [1905]).


    Read more: Native American Rights - Hunting And Fishing Rights http://law.jrank.org/pages/8750/Native-American-Rights-Hunting-Fishing-Rights.html#ixzz0nHJg8vLj

  9. #9
    wolfwatching
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    See, unknowingly the indigenous population engaged into a series of treaties in exchange for land usage, possession etc.. Under these treaties the indigenous populace were suppose to retain certain rights.. Every time there was a reason to, the treaties were broken or considered moot.. Some nations fought this problem and won..others didn’t and were relocated and disposed of.. I think it sucks that there are those who still push to see those treaties abolished.. Hard to digest.. What more could you possibly take from a people? Their land, language, culture, religion and now their right to hunt and fish without your interference because you pay a muni property tax and they don’t?? I’m really trying to be polite **promised**

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Some of the new homes built in Eagle last summer as a result of the massive breakup devastation were built by charitable donations of time and money...do those who live in those homes not get your "best regards" too? What responsibility does someone who contracts out to build and install water and sewer and HUD homes in villages, who works as a laborer for those outfits, assume as part and parcel of providing all these so-called "free" things for rural residents...should they be judged too? Where do you draw this line of judgment?

    It's ironic that you labeled this "too broad a brush" and continue to use that same broad brush. I don't think this thread is gonna be able to stay open DUX, because just like every other when this kind of topic comes up some are gonna jump in and start making broad generalizations and judgments of rural peoples, Native peoples. Not personal. Just me being honest with how I view your thoughts.
    Sincerely,
    No Problem bushrat...I understand your position, but my position is just that....mine. Yes I am making some broad generalizations...so are you; we all do. I'm basing my opinions on fact...fact to me because I witnessed them. I really don't care what anyone else thinks because for the most part, the rural preference stuff is self-serving jargon...with no honor or truth. All the "mother earth" BS, respect for elders...respect for anything as far as that goes. These people beat and rape each other with a higher rate than anywhere else in the country. They litter, kill and ruin everything without regard. Respect is earned, not demanded. Alaska also gets more free money per capita than anywhere in the country. Rather embarassing for a state that prides itself on it's independent nature.

    Your comments about judging those that labor to build homes, water, etc. No...they are working. And I don't mean the native version of working where you have to hire 5 people to try to get one to show up and do something. Again, that's my experience...and general rule-of-thumb from anyone else that has any experience out there. Are there exceptions? Of course...but not the rule. Where do I draw the line? At the end-using freeloader. If someone's home is rebuilt by charity? It depends how they got their home in the first place. If they got it for free originally....they're a freeloader. As you accuse me of generalizing...you're trying to split hairs. My position was pretty clear....and again, it's my position and I've earned the right to it. I'm not asking for anyone's respect (or demanding it as others do). I've earned mine the old fashioned way and I only care about receiving it from those that deserve mine. As as far as paying natives....they've been getting paid every day of their lives. I think any perceived debt has been paid ten-fold, and rather than whine about everything...it's time to be thankful for living in the US and move on. BTW...comparing welfare to the PFD is apples and oranges. That's digging too deep to try and come up with an argument.

    Likewise, bushrat...not personal at all to you. Just my thoughts. Best regards
    "We're all here cuz we're not all there"

  11. #11
    wolfwatching
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    Who is "them" that you witnessed? Were "them"
    Athabascan -AhtnaDeg Hit’anDena'ina Gwich’in HänHolikachukKolchan
    KoyukonLower TananaTanacrossUpper TananaEyakHaidaTlingitTsimshian?
    Eskimo - Inupiat (an Inuit people) YupikSiberian YupikYup'ikCup'ik
    Sugpiaq (Alutiiq) ChugachKoniag
    OR Aleut???
    I dont make broad generalizations because I've always viewed broad generalizations as spawning from a lack of intelligence and hatred..
    I DO hope that if you witnessed "them" doing some horrible wrongdoing that you reported it because being such a tender issue it is up to "them" to get their substance abuse and crime rates under control. There should be a zero tolerance policy upheld by the various tribal councils.
    Okay, lame topic.. <Yawn>

    Quote Originally Posted by AK DUX View Post
    No Problem bushrat...I understand your position, but my position is just that....mine. Yes I am making some broad generalizations...so are you; we all do. I'm basing my opinions on fact...fact to me because I witnessed them. I really don't care what anyone else thinks because for the most part, the rural preference stuff is self-serving jargon...with no honor or truth. All the "mother earth" BS, respect for elders...respect for anything as far as that goes. These people beat and rape each other with a higher rate than anywhere else in the country. They litter, kill and ruin everything without regard. Respect is earned, not demanded. Alaska also gets more free money per capita than anywhere in the country. Rather embarassing for a state that prides itself on it's independent nature.

    Your comments about judging those that labor to build homes, water, etc. No...they are working. And I don't mean the native version of working where you have to hire 5 people to try to get one to show up and do something. Again, that's my experience...and general rule-of-thumb from anyone else that has any experience out there. Are there exceptions? Of course...but not the rule. Where do I draw the line? At the end-using freeloader. If someone's home is rebuilt by charity? It depends how they got their home in the first place. If they got it for free originally....they're a freeloader. As you accuse me of generalizing...you're trying to split hairs. My position was pretty clear....and again, it's my position and I've earned the right to it. I'm not asking for anyone's respect (or demanding it as others do). I've earned mine the old fashioned way and I only care about receiving it from those that deserve mine. As as far as paying natives....they've been getting paid every day of their lives. I think any perceived debt has been paid ten-fold, and rather than whine about everything...it's time to be thankful for living in the US and move on. BTW...comparing welfare to the PFD is apples and oranges. That's digging too deep to try and come up with an argument.

    Likewise, bushrat...not personal at all to you. Just my thoughts. Best regards

  12. #12
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwatching View Post
    -perhaps rural folks are sick of paying for the lengthy imprisonment of urban heroin addicts..

    again... where exactly do these folks actually pay for it? i have lived Rural most of my 42 years here in AK...and don't recall paying for any of this ...

    now when i live in urban parts of the states i pay a premium on property taxes that go to various places around the boroughs but never did while living rural.... OH you mean the federal income taxes i pay... well i tend to get more of them back when i live rural then urban so i still am not paying for it.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  13. #13
    wolfwatching
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    I was making an abstract point Vince.. If we want to talk Sociology, point per point, than I suggest the topic gets cleaned up a bit first because it’s all over the board..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    again... where exactly do these folks actually pay for it? i have lived Rural most of my 42 years here in AK...and don't recall paying for any of this ...

    now when i live in urban parts of the states i pay a premium on property taxes that go to various places around the boroughs but never did while living rural.... OH you mean the federal income taxes i pay... well i tend to get more of them back when i live rural then urban so i still am not paying for it.

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    Default Forced warefare?

    With the subsistance laws in effect there is no reason for any Alaksan Native to accept welfare. Natives always have the option of returning to their old way of life but none choose to do so - ever wonder why? Obviously "taking way their lifestyle" wasn't so bad after all.

    The white man brough some grief and wasn't perfect - but the modern lifestyle he brought with him certainly beat the heck out of the old traditional lifestyle of famines and short lifespans and a the barest stone age existance.. All the natives obviously agree - they have accepted the white man's ways - actions speak much louder than words ever will.

    I don't think there is any critic anywhere who would express any objection to the subsistance taking of game and fish by traditional means. We do object to using snow machines, four wheelers, high powered rifles with scopes, outboard motors on metal boats etc. and then calling it "traditional" taking of game and fish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    The Government forced welfare on Alaska Natives and took away their lifestyle.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    wolfwatching
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    They did NOT have a choice! Have you researched anything in which you speak of? There was NO choice or option..It was become your enemy or become extinct.. Do you understand that?? They are nothing but a shadow cast in the background of modern civilization’s movement into complete dominion that in the end will destroy everything..They don’t understand foolish over-complication of a state of being that is simply natural. Turn the tables; just think someday you might have to..

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    With the subsistance laws in effect there is no reason for any Alaksan Native to accept welfare. Natives always have the option of returning to their old way of life but none choose to do so - ever wonder why? Obviously "taking way their lifestyle" wasn't so bad after all.

    The white man brough some grief and wasn't perfect - but the modern lifestyle he brought with him certainly beat the heck out of the old traditional lifestyle of famines and short lifespans and a the barest stone age existance.. All the natives obviously agree - they have accepted the white man's ways - actions speak much louder than words ever will.

    I don't think there is any critic anywhere who would express any objection to the subsistance taking of game and fish by traditional means. We do object to using snow machines, four wheelers, high powered rifles with scopes, outboard motors on metal boats etc. and then calling it "traditional" taking of game and fish.

  16. #16
    wolfwatching
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    Default History for Hunters who Care

    “White hunters assist the advance of modern civilization by destroying the Indians commissary; and it is a well know fact that an army losing its base of supplies is at a great disadvantage.
    Send them powder and lead if you will, but, for the sake of lasting peace, let them kill, skin, and sell until the buffalos are exterminated. Than your prairies can be filled with speckled cattle and the festive cowboy who follows the hunter as a second forerunner of advanced civilization..”
    -General Philip Sheridan to the Texas Legislation

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    wolfwatching
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    The real issue is, now, what side are you taking and for what reasons eh? Nitpick each other until there is nothing left? Find a solution that works? Or forfeit the entire principle..? Without the idea of subsistence what are YOUR hunting privileges based upon? And what makes you think, without the other, you have a chance in hell of sustaining? I’d really give that a moment of thought before continuing this argument and figure out what your bored mindset truly is..

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    Member bilbo's Avatar
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    Default this thread is ....

    reads as if it is posted as a blog by Wolfwatching.

    I have lived near Indian (aka native American) reservations/communities all my life.
    the situations noted here are nearly identical in theory and application at each and every one of them.
    people are sometimes way to quick too assume and judge. Others are way too slow to find fault.
    I have relatives who are both Native American and Yerapeein.....both have scoundrels, moochers and bums.
    Both also have great people who produce and are independent.
    just like real life!

  19. #19
    Member Blue Mist's Avatar
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    Default profiling

    Yes there are a lot of posts by the same folks on this thread. Happens when you have strong feelings about the subject.

    Mist

  20. #20
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    Default Sharing...

    Sharing is hardly a one way street. I hear little or not thanks from the native community for all the shared benefits gained from being an American in a civilized world. Little things like medicine and preservation of food that have doubled or tripled lifespans, modern housing, electricity, clothing, internal combustion engines, modern fabrics for clothing, communications, elimination of tribal warefare and slavery, freedom from Russian domination etc. etc. etc. My ancestors paid a heavy price too so the Alaskan natives could have the benefits of being an American. My ancestors' way of life in Europe also changed drastically when we came to this country and we endured the hardships of building the greatest country and civilization ever known.

    Our ancestors and our current generation both have all paid a hugh price to be Americans. Thank God for that these sacrifices were made - as a result we all have a lot to share and be thankfull for.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwatching View Post
    .....
    If anything, rural communities could use more funding and especially in areas of education and self-determination for the indigenous populace. Honestly, mostly I’m surprised they are so tolerant.. A big thanks to them for sharing this great state! Hopefully someday we can pay them back for the huge mess we’ve made..
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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