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Thread: Kenai Kings

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    Default Kenai Kings

    If you could pick the best 7 day stretch for late run Kenai Kings which stretch would it be? For me its the last 7 days of July. Just curious as to others thoughts

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    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    I don't think you'd get too many arguments on your pick of best days.



    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    I'd say mid to late july because when you get skunked you can at least catch reds.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Hold down your enthusiasium for the Kenai AKP.

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    Default Nice fish doc!

    Hey, really nice King there doc! Ya know....Iv'e got that color kwikie and Iv'e never had a dang hit on it. It's in my 'no confidence' box. <grin>

    Brings up an interesting discussion. I see the fish pictured is around 52 inches. What's a good guess for a king that size when it comes to weight?

    I rarely tag any kings from the Kenai as I release most and would only tag a bright slot fish if the feeling hits me. So I never get to weigh any of the bigger kings. I guess my question for the group is what's a good rule of thumb for guessing weight of these bruisers? I never get a girth measurement either as it seems to take forever and really try to get them back swimming before too long.

    Iv'e heard someone suggest to me that you can guess 1 pound for every 1 inch. But that doesn't seem to fly with me, as Iv'e weighed a few slot fish over the last few years that have been around 42" and weighed in at 35 pounds.

    It seems to me that a King puts on about 5 pounds per inch after they hit the 50 inch mark and the 1 pound per inch rule only works at the 50 inch mark, and I would guess that the 52 inch fish pictures is around 60 pounds.

    Thought this might be a fun topic, any thoughts?

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    Doc has a very elablorate system with a lot of research and I am sure he will get on and go over it. But here it is in a nutshell for KENAI kings:

    Girth squared x length / 750 = weight of a Kenai king

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    Bob Ball has the best salmon/steelhead calculator I've ever seen on his website. It's a darn good website, too.

    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/r...calculator.htm

    I prefer the last week in July in the mid river, between Bing's and Skilak. Good red fishing, usually good weather, and the kings are there. I have an 86 pounder on my wall from that area on July 29th a few years ago. Sometimes the lower river's hot that week, too. Variety is good.

    Like Commander Cody says..."There's a whole lotta things that I've never done, but I ain't never had too much fun." I keep trying.

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    Unhappy Sixe matters? Why?

    I never get a girth measurement either as it seems to take forever and really try to get them back swimming before too long.
    The above sentiment sounds right to me in that if one is going to release a fish, one should do it as quickly and as efficiently as humanly possible.

    What difference does it make how big the fish is? How does one rationalize "size matters"?


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    Let's not turn in this into an ethical debate over C&R. I think we have beat that dead horse too manhy times.

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    Measuring girth with a soft sewing tape is easy. That soft tape measure is required equipment in my vest or shirt. Releasing a fish quickly is secondary in importance to releasing a fish when it's ready. A tired-out king usually needs a minute or two to regain strength after getting it to the boat.

    As for size? You pull an 86# fish to the boat and release it if you want. I've fished the Kenai for most of my life and always said I'd mount the first fish I caught over 75#. It took better than 30 years.

    Yes, size matters. That's why we fish for kings in the last week of July when the river's full of reds!

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    Default Calm down. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Let's not turn in this into an ethical debate over C&R. I think we have beat that dead horse too manhy times.
    Now, yukon, calm down. . . I did not mention the dreaded "C" word nor did I bring up ethics.

    My question is simple and straightforward: How does one rationalize the "size matters" thing?

    I have, naturally, an opinion, but in fairness want to know whether I'm missing something. That's all. . .


  12. #12

    Thumbs up debate

    I agree with Yukon, lets start talk fishing here and have some fun doing it, save the debate for the "professionals" at the court house this week.
    The mentioned calculations are a very acurate and great way to find the size of your fish on the Kenai, each fish and each body of water that number at the end (one you divide by) will change. many regional f&g offices will be able to tell you a good number by which to go by.
    I also agree with the 50 is 50 rule 5 pounds per inch above 50 I think that holds true many times but I did have a 52 inch fish that went 82 this year so that kind of blows that thoery out. 43 inch always seem to go 36-38
    I have a chart on my boat with all the calculations on it so I just find 50 and say 30 move my finger across and bingo 60.8.....beautiful fish you just released!!! A $.99 sewing tape works really slick to find girth measurments simple and quick to use in a net, but I do reccomend buying 20 of them because they will have a way of finding themselves in every piece of clothing that you have.

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    Marcus, I am calm, that is why I posted what I did, so this thread does not get hijacked.
    Also, your question is directly related to C&R and ethics even though you did not use those words specifically, come on now....

  14. #14

    Default Size matters?

    Well I bet my wife would say it does!! HA!

    Back on track.....

    I released a real hawg last season that we measured at 54 and one half inches. No matter how hard I tried to squeeze that last half inch out it just wouldn't work. And by my story I am sure that you have surmised that it was during the early run with the slot limit still in effect. No girth measurements unfortunately, but I am going to start keeping a soft tape with me from now on, great idea.

    Fish was a big male that my wife caught actually, just trying to get a guess on the weight. We released him unharmed. Have thought about getting a replica mount of that fish done, as it was the biggest we have caught so far, but w/o girth measurements didn't know if I should attempt it.

    Interesting formula, squaring the girth like that....very cool. Can't wait to test it out.

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    54 1/2"?

    My 86# fish was 54" x 36" girth. It calculates to 90+ but it weighed 86. You released a dandy.

  16. #16

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    If you are looking to do a quick measurement. Just have a small piece of rope or twine around. Wrap it around the fish and get the exact number after teh fish is away. It does help to have a second set of hands to do this.

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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Hold down your enthusiasium for the Kenai AKP.

    I hate kings, hate em, hate em, hate em, they are like steelhead, for some reason I keep fishing for them though.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Default Amen

    Quote Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey View Post
    I hate kings, hate em, hate em, hate em, they are like steelhead, for some reason I keep fishing for them though.

    Yeah, it's not unlike golf...only often in the rain and no cute girl on the beer cart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Doc has a very elablorate system with a lot of research and I am sure he will get on and go over it. But here it is in a nutshell for KENAI kings:

    Girth squared x length / 750 = weight of a Kenai king

    Well not quite... the fishNphysician divisor is actually 740 not 750.

    Weight = L x G x G / 740

    A tabular edition of my formula is floating around on laminated spreadsheets on a lot of private and guide boats on the Kenai, especially those that support a strong C&R ethic.

    I back-calculated my divisor based on taping every Kenai king I could get my hands on between 1996 and 2005. Many were taken from my own boat, but the vast majority were measured on the Riverbend rack. The formula is extremely accurate, especially for hens. I still take a few measurements every summer just to validate the formula among spectators. Funny, for the first time ever in the summer of 2005, I was asked by Riverbend management to stop doing this as they were afraid the true weights predicted by the formula and confirmed on an accurate scale were jeopardizing tips for their guide fleet. A bit embarrassing when another supposed 50#er (as estimated by the guide) had a tough time breaking the 40# mark against a measuring tape and an accurate scale!

    Just a few side notes, though. For the formula to be accurate, length must be measured snout to mid-fork ... NOT total length (snout to tip of tail). The latter gives a false over-estimation of weight. Girth should be taken immediately in front of the dorsal fin.

    The formula is bang on for hens... within a pound or less in well over 95% of specimens. This highlights the consistency of phenotypic proportions in Kenai hens.

    For bucks, the formula is a bit divergent. It will tend to slightly under-predict (by 1-3%) the weight on a tide-fresh wide-body chromer... these are the barrel-chested males that have thick cross sections that mimic a rotund hen, especially if that thickness carries well into the wrist of the tail.

    It will tend to over-predict the weight on a sexually mature, ridge-backed male that has "slabbed up" (tall from belly-to-back and skinny from side-to-side) where the cross section is more elliptical. The magnitude of over-estimation error will increase in proportion with the size of the fish, perhaps as much as 5 pounds on a fish in the 70-80 pound class.

    ****

    Here is a thread I picked up on another forum regarding LGW formulas, and how well certain divisors hold up in real life. FYI these were done on chunky Skeena strain steelhead typically weighing anywhere from 12-30 pounds. The investigator's formula has a fudge factor that adjusts for sex... pretty interesting findings.

    December 12, 2003

    KEELIN WEIGHT ESTIMATOR FOR BABINE STEELHEAD

    A scientist looks at Babine steelhead weight estimates.

    This week I had the good fortune to make the acquaintance of Mr. Tom Keelin. Tom is a dedicated S & S [steel & spey] fisherman, with a scientific bent, who spent two years analyzing Babine steelhead length and girth dimensions versus weight.

    Tom created his weight estimator based on physical measurements of 56 steelhead caught and released at Silver Hilton Lodge in 2001-2002 as recorded by Mark MacAneeley, the head guide. A soft mesh net was used to gently lift the steelhead from the water to enable accurate weighing prior to release.

    Tom discovered that:
    • using the Traditional Formula
    length*girth*girth / 800
    -gave a weight estimate within 1 lb of actual 7% of the time.
    -93% of weights are underestimated by more than 1 lb.

    • using the Sturdy Formula
    length*girth*girth / 750
    -gave a weight estimate within 1 lb of actual 33% of the time.
    -67% of weights are underestimated by more than 1 lb.

    • using the “Keelin Estimator”
    length*girth*girth / 690
    -gave weight estimates within 1 lb of actual 81% of the time.
    -10% of weights are underestimated by more than 1 lb.
    -9% of weights are overestimated by more than 1 lb.
    - An interesting part of the Keelin estimator is adding 1/4 inch to the measured length of a hen, and deducting 1/4 inch from the measured length of a buck before entering the Keelin table.


    As you can see the divisors 800 and 750 are exceedingly likely to underguess the true live weight of the fish.

    I think that Keelin's 690 divisor is a little too small as it yields an overestimation of weight in 9% of cases. I try to avoid overstating the weight of any fish at all cost.

    I like the concept of a sex adjusted fudge factor, but I think Keelin's 1/4 inch adjustment is too absolute and very limiting, especially as the size of the fish approaches that of a true Kenai Hawg. The difference between 32 and 32.25 is already pretty small, but comparing 52 and 52.25 becomes almost meaningless. I believe adding a certain percentage to the length of a hen or conversely deducting a like percentage from the length of a buck would be a more accurate way of applying the concept.

    ADFG uses eye-to-fork length to make their measurements more reproducible. Using eye-to-fork length keeps the measurement on a straight line axis with very well defined endpoints. It also eliminates the variable of a LONG skinny snout on a mature buck which is a big source of error in estimating the weight on males.

    ***

    For those who wish to forgo a girth measurement ( too hard to do solo, or just want to get the fish on its way) a reasonable estimate can be made from the fork length alone. A typical Kenai king has 3 x 5 dimensions... that is, a 50 in king will have an average girth of 30 inches, a 45 inch king will average a 27 inch girth.

    (L)(0.6 x L)(0.6 x L) / 740 should give you a very conservative ballpark estimate of weight.

    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

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    Sorry Doc, I wasn't far off. LOL

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