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Thread: Two sides to DLP situations

  1. #1
    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    Default Two sides to DLP situations

    We either like or hate Medred; however sometimes he makes sense and this is one of those times.

    (is this a Game Management or Global D. thread?)

    Are there two sets of rules in Alaska?

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    Default problem

    Thats the reason so many people practice the three S rule. I have talked to wildlife officials about this problem before to no avail, in the end in most cases they leave you with no choice.

    In northern BC where the outfitters are on a strict quota for Grizzly bears residents too for that matter this is the problem. Say you are out in the boonies and have a DLP situation so you shoot the bear, now you are required by law to skin the bear and bring in the hide. Ok no problem except you get stopped at the trailhead by F/G officer you are in possession of a Grizzly hide and you dont have a tag.... big trouble for you and it has happened on more than one occasion. The outfitters got together and went to F/G and ask for a letter stating that guides could be in possession of bear hides without tags when DLP situations happened, of course F/G said no. So with the very real possibility of huge fines the bears are left to rot, insane IMO.
    They need to give more bear tags but that wont happen.
    A very good friend of mine shot a bull moose a few years ago, the moose dropped the jumped up and he shot it again..... two dead moose, he did what most of us would have, he went to F/G and told his story..... the red tape they put him through was uncalled for and did nothing but enforce it upon him to never go to them again.

  3. #3
    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    he did what most of us would have, he went to F/G and told his story..... the red tape they put him through was uncalled for and did nothing but enforce it upon him to never go to them again.
    Yeah, going to them ain't a really good idea!

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    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Default Bad situations turned into even more of a bad situation.

    I certainly would not want to be in a situation that you have to shoot an animal when you originally did not want to. It happened to me twice, years ago but nowadays, times seemed to have changed.
    I know of a hunter that shot an illegal sub bull moose here in the Mat-su a couple of years ago. He did the right thing to do in the situation. He salvaged the meat and then turned himself into the authorities. When he showed up in court, the poor guy got creamed by the judge. Nailed with a $2500 fine.
    It just makes a guy think twice if he happens to get himself into the same situation. I'll just leave it at that.
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  5. #5

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    How I deal with some problems:

    Step#1. Shoot the Problem.

    Step#2. Use Backhoe or Dozer to make problem go away.

    Step#3. SHUT-UP (Tell N0-One)

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Not one of Craig's best pieces imo. Two totally different scenarios. One was a moose harassed and wounded by wolves, which the two hikers came across, and then the moose wouldn't leave them be. The other was harassed by a dog, and the moose apparently went after the dog and wasn't endangering the boy. Having seen plenty of moose/dog encounters...I've never really seen where the dog was in any real danger and couldn't escape or get away.

    Good shot by the 14-year-old btw, good ol' .22 rimfire is something else.

    Hunter screwups, like shooting two moose by mistake, are major screwups and I don't see a problem with troopers fining said hunter or putting him through red tape. Shooting sublegal moose, salvaging all the meat, then turning yourself in...maybe that fine was excessive, don't know the details, but our game laws are there for a reason, and we hear stories that are supposed to act like deterrents...rather than push the notion not to turn oneself in I'd prefer on this forum to push the notion not to shoot a sublegal animal and to pay close enough attention you don't shoot two by mistake.

  7. #7

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    I think that the biggest obstacle when dealing with F&G enforcement on these issues, is character. Each and every F&G enforement officer has a different personality, and a different view (interpretation) of things. I have a friend that worked in F&G enforcement and I recall us talking about how if a guy shoots a sublegal bull and turns himself and the meat in, it is supposed to be like a $50 fine. However he admitted that not all enforement officials stop there, and end up turning it into a much larger (AND COSTLY) ordeal. Hence why some guys will not turn themselves in. Same goes for bears, I have personally talked to F&G enforcement officers that will not question a DLP on a grizzly, while others will tear the entire thing apart and end up making the shooter the bad guy. Lots of fine lines out there on this stuff, and all a guy can do is hope he dont get caught up on one end or the other. I almost DLP'd a brownie on Kodiak Island 3 years ago after shooting a buck and having this bear come out of nowhere at a dead run in our direction. At about 60 yards he stopped, we stayed hidden with guns on him and he couldn't figure out where the deer was at (wind was not in his favor). It was a breath of relief when he turned and walked down the mountain, but I assure you that for 30 or so seconds, the last thing on my mind was what is F&G gonna say! A guy sometimes has to do what he has to do........consequences will be what they will be!

  8. #8

    Default F&G versus DPS

    To be clear, you guys are all talking about DPS, which is the Department of Public Safety, not F&G, which is the Department of Fish and Game. DPS are the ones with enforcement officers I believe, and their opinion is frequently a little different than F&G, whose game board sets the rules. Just wanted to make that distinction.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacklab View Post
    To be clear, you guys are all talking about DPS, which is the Department of Public Safety, not F&G, which is the Department of Fish and Game. DPS are the ones with enforcement officers I believe, and their opinion is frequently a little different than F&G, whose game board sets the rules. Just wanted to make that distinction.
    When someone says F&G enforcement, they are referring to the troopers, they are the only ones who enforce F&G related violations/issues on state land. There is no such thing as F&G officers per say.

  10. #10

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    Many years ago myself and my partner had to DLP a charging sow grizzly with 2-3 year old cubs. He wanted to bury her and be done with it, I wouldn't have any of it so we skinned out the bear and I carried her 5+ hours back to base camp. 2 days later our air charter picked us up and was shocked to see that grizzly. He asked us why we brought it out and I told him why.

    When we got back to Fairbanks I turned the hide in and skull in to F&G. The interviewed all 3 of us (my friends wife was with us) and took our written statements. We never heard from them again. As easy as it would be to SSS, I would not be able to live with myself if I did something like that. For those that turn in illegally taken or DLP critters, I think the law should be a bit easier on them. Of course that would be case by case.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    As easy as it would be to SSS, I would not be able to live with myself if I did something like that. For those that turn in illegally taken or DLP critters, I think the law should be a bit easier on them. Of course that would be case by case.

    Do you own a farm in the heart of Bear Heaven.........The problem is after two or three a year they (Enforcement) gets cranky. And I still have too dig the hole for the carcass. It is not like we are on vacation, we have 16 hours of farm/homestead work to get done in a 12 hour day.

    And know one ever thinks about the old people or people who physically skin a brown bear.

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    Member Skookumchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaCub View Post
    When someone says F&G enforcement, they are referring to the troopers, they are the only ones who enforce F&G related violations/issues on state land. There is no such thing as F&G officers per say.
    FWIW any ADF&G person can get an enforcement badge, but most don't have one. Those that do certainly do not go out and look for violations like the troopers do, but they can write you a ticket if they see you breaking the law.
    Nice Marmot.

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    Default illegal

    I have told our COs (F/G trooper) that they need to look at it like this.... if a guy comes in and turns himself in you can probably believe his story, if you nail this guy to the wall do you really think he will be helpful or turn himself in next time?? Hunters make mistakes we are human but when they make it unreasonably hard on people when they do screw up with fines etc they are just making voluntary admissions less likely in the future.

    Different COs handle things differently too. I went to pick up a friend who had canoed down a river hunting bear a few years ago, he had killed a nice Blk bear and on the drive home we saw a nice Grizzly on the Mt. we stopped he hiked up a ways and killed the bear. A car went by when we were loading the bear into the truck. We hadnt gone more than 20 miles down the road when here comes the F/G lights blazing, we pulled over and the one guy RAN up to the truck yelling who shot the bear who shot the bear! The other guy was very nice and friendly and ask questions with respect while this other guy was a jerk. The jerk said the bear was to young and that a grizzly wasnt legal until it turned 3, I told him there was no sow anywhere in sight and did he expect us to go check teeth before shooting it. He made my friend drive the bear into Whitehorse ( he threatened to confiscate my truck if we didnt!) to get it aged. Well after driving over 100 miles out of our way and a night spent in town waiting for the office to open to get the bear aged the Bio that does the ageing told us it was very hard to age a bear under 4 or so and as long as there isnt a sow present and its obviously not a little cub they are legal, he figured the bear in question to be 4 1/2 or so. The C/O never apologized and we found out he had just been elevated to the C/O in charge at the Whitehorse office. He sure helped public relations for the department that day. Unfortunatly storys like that are pretty common here.
    Mark the point wasnt about it being a major screw up when my friend shot two moose by mistake, it was a real screw up. The point was what did they gain by doing what they did??? Common sense would tell anyone that if someone comes in and tells on himself he is really telling the truth and they gain nothing but the fine money when they treat people that way. Here the country is so big they need all the friends they can get.... but common sense doesnt prevail and they end up alienating hunters to their own detriment.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I am always conflicted on this issue. I hope to never find myself in the position but I have known a couple good guys who have. For DLP I would skin it and turn it in w/ a statement. For a sublegal animal I would love to get a lawyers take on it.

    Under the fifth amendment you are not required to incriminate yourself, correct? So if you mistakenly shoot a sublegal moose how can they require you to punch your harvest ticket?
    I am inclined to think that the best (legal, not necessarily moral) answer would be to skin it and hike it out then just turn it in and if asked any questions about it just telling them you are fulfilling the requirement of the law and turning in the sublegal animal and for any other questions you invoke your fifth amendment rights.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post

    And know one ever thinks about the old people or people who physically skin a brown bear.

    Should have said, And Know one ever considers the Old People or People who "CAN"T" Physically skin a large Brown Bear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I am always conflicted on this issue. I hope to never find myself in the position but I have known a couple good guys who have. For DLP I would skin it and turn it in w/ a statement. For a sublegal animal I would love to get a lawyers take on it.

    Under the fifth amendment you are not required to incriminate yourself, correct? So if you mistakenly shoot a sublegal moose how can they require you to punch your harvest ticket?
    I am inclined to think that the best (legal, not necessarily moral) answer would be to skin it and hike it out then just turn it in and if asked any questions about it just telling them you are fulfilling the requirement of the law and turning in the sublegal animal and for any other questions you invoke your fifth amendment rights.

    Administrative Rule 43.2. Fish and Game Bail Forfeiture Schedule. 5 ACC 92.410(b) Failure to submit report. (This does not include failure to salvage). $75

    If I understand this correctly if you do not fill out the DLP paper work that is your right under self incrimination, you will be fine $75. If you do fill out the paper work, they could use the information to fine you $1000 or more.

    ********************************************

    What can a hunter do to protect himself and still obey the law? I do not hunt grizzlies or buy a tag; any bear I kill will be a DLP bear. I plan to put several bullets in its head and tell F&G the location of the bear and I was protecting myself. I will not bring in the bear because it is a crime scene and I do not want to be accused of destroying any evidence. When the Trooper talks to me, I will refer him to my lawyer. I will not fill out a DLP and say NOTHING MORE. Filing out a DLP can be used in court to convict you. Itís like a cop asking a drug dealer to describe how he sells drugs.

    Moose and Caribou are a lot more complicated. Letís say you came across an animal that was taken illegally and it is still warm or several days old and you take the antlers. By law, you must transport the game to the nearest office of F&G or Trooper or you will be breaking the law. If you are stopped, by a trooper before you arrive at the nearest office, you are dead meat and you will be charged with multiple counts along with everybody in your hunting party. You getting a ticket is only part of your problems. The trooper can and will take your rifle, atv, truck, boat and what every he wants to force you into pleading guilty or loose everything. If you plead innocent and win, it will still cost you thousands of $$$$ and this will not include the cost of defending the rest of your hunting party; or one person plead guilty.

    If this happens to you, it is easy to do the right thing and avoid conviction. You must remember two things and do six things.
    Remember: 1) You cannot be convicted of unlawful possession or transportation of game meat you have salvaged to surrender to authorities (see 5 AAC 92.140);
    2) ((((Keep your mouth shut)))). As a suspect, you have the right to remain silent. The trooper will be recording everything you say.

    Do these six things:
    1) Turn in the meat.
    2) State only that you are turning in salvaged meat, and provide your driverís license for identification. If he asks for your hunting license tell him to ask your lawyer. You are not hunting and thereís no reason he needs it. If you give it to him and he does not return it, you cannot do any more hunting.
    3) Politely explain that you may be a suspect and that you have nothing else to add, pursuant to your right.
    4) Say nothing else!
    5) When you get the citation, plead not guilty.
    6) At trial, tell the judge that you wish to take the Fifth Amendment and offer that you were legally transporting the meat to F&G as allowed by 5AAC 92.140.
    Above all, do not let the troopers intimidate you. Ignore their threats and remain silent. They depend on you to convict yourself with your own mouth because they have no witnesses and no evidence as to what happened.
    Remember, they have the burden of proof, and if you follow the above, you will win.

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    Default RM

    I like that advice RM. With the punishment/fines we have on the books here its no laughing matter. We should obviously all follow the law and I believe most try too but you also have to protect yourself if something happens.

    There was a poor fellow hunting caribou up the Dempster a few years ago when you were allowed 2 caribou. He shot 2 and one turned out to be a cow, he loaded the bull on his skimmer and upon getting to his truck found the local COs waiting, he told them he had shot a cow by accident and was going back for her. They charged him with wasting meat..... he won in court as he had no plans to waste anything but it was still very expensive meat after he paid his lawyer! They took the bull too!

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    Default ...

    I shot a bear this last spring that was determined to be a cub. It was all by itself (wide open tundra), no other bears around. I thought I wounded it w/my 338 (ran out of rounds, as I was just out for a drive and only had 3 in the gun), as it didn't run away after I shot, and eventually just stopped. I grabbed my .204 that was in the truck, walked out to it as it watched me and let me get 50 yds (I chose to stop, and it not running while I did this only reassured me of it MUST be wounded). Shot it in the neck w/the .204. Dead. Turns out...only hole in it was in the neck!!!!

    Walk up, see that it isn't big, but not horribly small but did raise some concern. Hard to judge size on a bear when in the wide open and nothing around to judge size, and it didn't matter as any bear is a trophy in my book. Go to F&G and share my concern that it is a small bear but was ALONE. They tell me that it is a cub and call the Troopers to cite me. I explain my story, and that if they want witnesses I had plenty in the truck (my father, mother, wife and our baby...not that the baby is a good witness). They said it didn't matter because by law if one shoots a cub it is illegal. The bear was amaciated and it had no fat and it's bones were really predominant when I skinned it. Definately was not eatting. F&G figured someone must have shot mom, and that was why it didn't run from the area.

    After it's all said and done I "hear from a person" that if I fought it I would have won because a person can't judge the bear cub w/o the sow present and it's actions, and physical condition indicate that the sow must have no longer been in the bear's life. And the law is written for "a reasonable person to understand" or: I couldn't know(no one could) and therefore couldn't be held accountable for that action.

    Oh yeah, bear squared 5' (not huge) and the skull was almost 16". Again...not huge, but have seen smaller.

    Moral of the story: next questionable bear won't make it for "review" from the powers that be.
    Know guns. Know peace. Know safety.

    No guns: no peace. No safety!

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    Unhappy dlp

    Well, I think the thing to do is if you have a DLP situation just hire an attorney to assist you in filling out the form and in any communication with law enforcement. Or at least thats what I would do. I think making a statement or participating in an interview would be a mistake cause words can be misinterpreted. If Alaskan22 had talked to an attorney before the troopers they might have dropped the case. I know its costly, but I wouldnt talk to law enforcement without one (if I am the accused).
    ďI come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. ď Fred Bear

  20. #20

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    Best advice i have seen is do not incriminate yourself, Contacting an attorney is a good idea but not everyone can afford one, or circumstances may not allow. What i would do is write down how the incident happened, and refer back to my paper while communicating with the trooper. (if i was by myself, in the middle of no where i see no reason to pack the DLP bear out, sounds like enough extra packing to ruin a hunt if your solo, and what difference would it make? let nature run its course)

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