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Thread: Points system draw..

  1. #1
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Default Points system draw..

    I see a few folks that really seem to think we need to go to a point system for draw, and some that are adamantly against it. Make your case guys, I'm totally uneducated about it.
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    the draw should work as follows.

    All who enter show up for a selection meeting on an appointed date, which gets changed a couple of times just beforehand per ADF&G whimsy.

    Once the date is actually set and people show up, all are allowed to point to one person (other than themselves) who they think deserves a permit.

    "Points" are tallied and the person with the most points selects their permit of choice, and so on for the remaining permits.

    Rock paper scissors (with a randomized bracket system) will be used to arrange people with the same number of points in terms of order of selection.

    simple.

  3. #3
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Nice Andy..

    Looking for more information on the points systems that are used in most Western states.
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  4. #4

    Default be careful what you ask for

    Point systems are now in place for many big game hunts in most western states. Most people in places where they are used have come to live with them but they definitely have their pluses and minuses. I'm not sure any one system is better than others - I think that is why alot of hard core guys outside are applying in multiple states to get the best of all worlds.

    On the good side, they seem to work pretty well to make sure people have a reasonable chance of drawing a tag for hunts that just take one or a few points on average. They pretty much guarantee that everybody will get a chance to draw these hunts at some point. They avoid the situation where some lucky people draw more often just by chance and some unlucky people practically never get to draw just because they keep getting a bad number. For instance, you know you will get your draw over 2 or 5 years on average.

    Another good part about a point system is that it generally helps in planning because you will know when you have enough points to be likely to draw. When everything is random, there is no way to predict and you can even by chance get lucky and draw too many hunts that conflict which of course always happens to a small percentage when everything is random.

    On the bad side, I would have to say that point systems are proving to be very unfair for the premium high demand tough-to-draw hunts in many states. What we are seeing on these in state after state is that the guys that get in on the ground floor might eventually get a chance to draw in 10 or more years. But, those that come in later practically never get a chance to draw because there are way more applicants than tags and the number of points required to draw creeps out ahead every year.

    States have come up with different systems to try to balance this out. Many states have some kind of allocation formula for tags so that a certain portion, say 25 or 50% are available for a random draw regardless of points. That gives everybody a chance even if they don't have max points but the high point people still have a better chance.

    There are also preference point and bonus point systems. In preference point systems a point is a point - some tags go to max point holders among the applicants - the rest go to a random draw. Bonus point systems give you extra draw chances depending on how many points you have - some give an extra chance per point, others do things like squaring your points to calculate your odds.

    There are also abunch of other wacky peculiarities from state to state. Most states make you buy a license to apply. Some states require you to front all the license and tag money up front to apply and then refund if you don't draw. Some states make you buy a license and general tag before they let you apply for a draw hunt. Some states let you apply for a point without applying for a specific hunt. In some states, all first choice applicants are drawn first and you only get a second choice if there are tags left over. In others, you get multiple choices and they go down your list before moving on to the next applicant.

  5. #5
    Member ACNDHO's Avatar
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    Default draw

    Make the draw public, banquet, televised or something. If you don't draw you get your funds back. Got to figure out a way to get the tags away from the huggers that draw and don't hunt.
    Even a jackass won't stumble on the same stone twice.

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    That money goes to fund the program and other wildlife projects. There is no way you could refund the money and support the program. I really doubt there are many "huggers" applying for the permit since they also must have a last year license or purchase one before applying for a draw. That money also goes into wildlife management.
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACNDHO View Post
    Make the draw public, banquet, televised or something. If you don't draw you get your funds back. Got to figure out a way to get the tags away from the huggers that draw and don't hunt.
    I don't see the connection between your two statements (maybe there wasn't meant to be one?). The public draw would be interesting, a logistical nightmare to say the least, but interesting anyway, but I don't see how that would have any relation to "huggers" getting permits. Anyway, those "huggers" are helping to fund the work that ADF&G does. What would you gain by preventing them from getting some of the permits even if you did find a way to do it? You couldn't just give those to others who would hunt. That would increase the take of whatever species meaning that there likely would be an overharvest. Those permits that are not hunted for and those who just aren't successful when they do hunt are factored into the available permits. More hunters actually hunting means they would have to reduce the available permits to keep the same number of animals being taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    I see a few folks that really seem to think we need to go to a point system for draw, and some that are adamantly against it. Make your case guys, I'm totally uneducated about it.
    The system is fine the way is...it's very simple and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's a simple lottery system now...some people are just lucky, some are not.

    Until someone provides some concrete whistle blower type evidence that the system is rigged (besides low draw percentages for multiple tag winners) I see no reason to change it to make things more complicated and expensive. And no...I did not draw this year.

  9. #9

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    I don't like the points system for a couple reasons, one of the biggest ones being that it discourages new people from taking up the activity.

    With our current system, the random draw, every person, whether they are putting in the first time ever or if they have put in for 30 years, are equal in their chances. If you are trying to encourage someone to pick up hunting, whether they are new to the area, a young kid, or just someone wanting a change, they can feel included right from the start. You can explain how great hunting is, the benefits of the healthy food source, the way it gets you into the outdoors to enjoy what Alaska has to offer, it helps when they can at least have a chance to draw a permit from the start. Think if you tried to explain to someone new, "hey, you should pick up hunting and start paying money into this system, but by the way, there is a 100% guarantee that you WON'T get any permit for 10, 15, 20 years, but keep forking over the money and you will eventually get one." Talk about a good way to put a sour taste in their mouth. For hunts like the moose up 20-mile, some of the point systems would pretty much guarantee that nobody under the age of about 60 would ever get a permit (and that would be for the ones putting in since they were born).

    As hunters, we should be trying to increase the support of what we do. We are always treading on the line with the "anti" groups who would love a way to recruit people to "their side". Maybe a points system won't turn someone to the "anti" side, but it sure doesn't help to bring them to the "for" side.

    I also question the claim of "fairness" of points systems when they feel they have to add in a portion for random draw to make it more fair. If the points system was so fair, why would they need to suplement it with the system it is replacing to improve it? Seems like you could just stick with the random draw from the start.

    Just my opinion on it for now. Always looking for new ideas though so never willing to totally rule out alternatives.

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    Lightbulb Weighted Lottery

    Here is the weighted lottery system that North Dakota uses. It is a way of increasing chances of being drawn after years of applying but it is still a random lottery in the end. This system allows for the chance for everyone to be drawn their first year in but does give better odds to those who haven't drawn a tag in several years. When I lived there it seemed to work well and didn't seem to recieve many complaints. Just my $.02.

    http://gf.nd.gov/hunting/weighted-lo...explained.html

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    Red that looks good up to the 5th year. Have everyone choose the tags they want the most. If you want that bison it would have to be your 1st choice every year. If you want the cow tags it would be your 1st choice. Your put in for the remote uncommon tags you would still get drawn every year. If you want the low percentage ones you would have an increased chance each year to draw what you really want.

  12. #12

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    Points systems are no bueno.....BUT I'll play in the fantasy theory with everyone

    If I had to pick a points system it would be Nevada's. They square the points you have. Then that # is how many times your name goes in the draw for that year. Example First year putting in you are in the draw 1 time. You have 10 points going into the draw? thats 101 (10x10 + current year application). So the guys who draw tags (lucky or not) will still get tags and the unlucky ones (whiners) will have better odds every year....and still whine.

    All the guys that are complaining for a points system would really be complaining right now if there has been a points system in place for 10-20 years like some other states.

    And to add complications to bonus points systems is that over time they will change the system and that will either benefit the guys who have been in the system a long time or totally screw them. And its usually the latter.

    Alaska has so many hunting opportunities I can't believe anyone would even think about complaining about not drawing a tag. In some states you don't draw a tag you gotta start looking at OTHER states to big game hunt.

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    Alaska, is the last Real Wild State, The Draw leaves everyone in suspense. Knowing at the time of draw you have a yearly chance of seeing that great Wild Beauty called Alaska. I don't think it should change, if it did it be the same boring draw the lower 48 has.

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    Just to be clear with my first post, I am not arguing to change the system from the way it is. I was merely addressing the original post asking about the draw systems of other western states. I think all systems that are finacially feasable for the F&G to use have their pros and cons, and there will always be the person not happy with it. BTW I have not put in for a draw here yet, even though I have been a resident for 3 years, since most years I end up being sent away during the hunting season. I figure I will just grab a general tag and try my luck if I get the opportunity to stay in the state during a season I am interested in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    I don't like the points system for a couple reasons, one of the biggest ones being that it discourages new people from taking up the activity.

    With our current system, the random draw, every person, whether they are putting in the first time ever or if they have put in for 30 years, are equal in their chances. If you are trying to encourage someone to pick up hunting, whether they are new to the area, a young kid, or just someone wanting a change, they can feel included right from the start. You can explain how great hunting is, the benefits of the healthy food source, the way it gets you into the outdoors to enjoy what Alaska has to offer, it helps when they can at least have a chance to draw a permit from the start. Think if you tried to explain to someone new, "hey, you should pick up hunting and start paying money into this system, but by the way, there is a 100% guarantee that you WON'T get any permit for 10, 15, 20 years, but keep forking over the money and you will eventually get one." Talk about a good way to put a sour taste in their mouth. For hunts like the moose up 20-mile, some of the point systems would pretty much guarantee that nobody under the age of about 60 would ever get a permit (and that would be for the ones putting in since they were born).

    As hunters, we should be trying to increase the support of what we do. We are always treading on the line with the "anti" groups who would love a way to recruit people to "their side". Maybe a points system won't turn someone to the "anti" side, but it sure doesn't help to bring them to the "for" side.

    I also question the claim of "fairness" of points systems when they feel they have to add in a portion for random draw to make it more fair. If the points system was so fair, why would they need to suplement it with the system it is replacing to improve it? Seems like you could just stick with the random draw from the start.

    Just my opinion on it for now. Always looking for new ideas though so never willing to totally rule out alternatives.
    AnchSkier is on the right track as far as securing hunter prospects for the future. We need to encourage the youth as well as keep the "old timers" intrigued in managing Alaska's game.

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    The system is fine the way is...it's very simple and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's a simple lottery system now...some people are just lucky, some are not.
    I am on the record as supporting the current system. I wanted to start a thread to encourage those that support a points system to tell us why and educate me on how they work.

    I am intrigued by North Dakota's system. I'm going to have to research it a bit more.
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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Tying youth hunts to the draw is a bunch of hooey IMO. There are plenty of hunting opportunities in this state regardless of the draw.

    IF the draw were to adopt a points system AND they asked me I would recommend the Washington model (as I understand it).

    Assuming you consistently apply for the same tags year after year, every year you don't draw you accumulate a point. Your name goes into the draw for that tag equal to your points total plus once for the current year. So if you apllied for DS102 from 2001 to 2009 without drawing you would've had 10 chances in the 2010 draw. No guarantee to draw but you have a 10:1 advantage over a first year applicant who could still draw.

    As I said in the other thread IF the Draw were made public I'd conduct it at the Sportsman's Show....that'd bring in the crowds.

    I would vote against bonus tags that could be purchased.

    I would support some sort of system that granted extra points to seniors or to folks with 10 or more points as a means of throwing a bone to the guys who've been applying for the same tags for 30 years.

    As for getting a refund??? As it stands now at 5 or 10 bucks per hunt for most hunts...that barely covers the administration of the draw we have now.

    Of course, we could just leave well enough alone.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

  18. #18

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    I've been applying for limited tags all over the Western US for the past 20 years so have seen the good, bad, and ugly in regard to bonus/pref pts/no pt systems. One thing for sure it is pretty hard to please everyone and every system tends to have it's good and bad points.

    As an example of a system that is working well (for me). Wyo started a pref pt system for deer, elk, and antelope around 5 years ago. Wyo residents didn't want any part of a pref pt system so currently only WY nonres are offered the pref pt system for these species. I hadn't drawn a Wyo elk or deer tag for 20 years until they started nonres pts and I have drawn 2 elk and 2 deer tags in the past 5 years..and will likely draw more of these tags in the coming years. My Wyo res buddy has yet to draw 1 of these tags in the same units during the past 5 years...do you think he wants a pref pt system for Wyo res?

    Wyo is one of those states that splits the tag pool for nonres into a general draw where everyone has a chance to draw a tag and another pool where tags go to applicants w/high pref pts. A system like this works super well in units/hunts where there is a large turnover of tags and applicants get cycled through the system quickly. Obviously units/species with high demand and fewer tags available the applicants will cycle through the system slower so it will likely take longer to draw a tag. High demand tags with any type of system (including no pts) will have horrible draw odds but at least guys that have applied the longest have a little better chance to draw a covetted tag.

    What Wyo residents are slowly but surely realizing is that as Wyo's population continues to grow it is getting tougher and tougher to draw all limited tags. Even though only 10 to 20% of the total available tags are going to Wyo nonresidents the draw odds for nonres in the same units is often a lot better than res since nonres have a pref pt system. Where I deer and elk hunt I am currently guaranteed a tag every 2 to 3 years while Wyo res may never draw 1 tag! I actually don't mind the fact that guys that haven't drawn a tag will likely draw sooner than me but I am virtually guarantteed to draw another tag in 2 to 3 years.

    One thing Alaska residents may ask themselves is the Alaska human population growing and how much tougher is it getting each year to draw tags? If you aren't concerned about having worse and worse draw odds maybe it doesn't matter to you not having a pref/bonus pt system? I would think most would agree that guys that have applied 20 years for a hard to draw tag should have a little better chance than someone just starting off. Also, 1 guy may draw 5 or 6 tags in a lifetime while 1 guy may draw 0. You may want to ask yourself if that is fair? Should the guy that draws a super tough tag have to go to the end of the line or have a little less chance of drawing a tag?

    I know some guys complain that new hunters are intimidated by bonus/pref pt systems but they will likely find out that they will have a lot better odds of drawing the same tag if they are willing to start applying each year with a pt system rather than applying where no pt system is available. There will likely be hunts/tags available that aren't the premium tough draw units that will likely be guaranteed to be drawn every year or 2 with a pt system that may take forever to draw without a pt system.

    With that said, I tend to like the systems that give everyone a fair chance of drawing a tag but also believe that guys that have applied for more years and not drawn should have a better chance than someone just starting out or some one that has already drawn a tag.

    If you want to go into details about each system....I know them well...and I have drawn many once in a lifetime type tags through the Western US! The tags I have the toughest time drawing are the ones like AK where there is no pref/bonus pt system! My 20+ years applying for Wyo deer and elk is a great example of this!

  19. #19

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    I have to agree. This is the same system Montana uses and I believe it is the best of both worlds and is the most fair for everyone.








    Quote Originally Posted by rednexrus View Post
    Here is the weighted lottery system that North Dakota uses. It is a way of increasing chances of being drawn after years of applying but it is still a random lottery in the end. This system allows for the chance for everyone to be drawn their first year in but does give better odds to those who haven't drawn a tag in several years. When I lived there it seemed to work well and didn't seem to recieve many complaints. Just my $.02.

    http://gf.nd.gov/hunting/weighted-lo...explained.html

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    Default not broke dont fix

    Dont fix things that are not broke, the grass is always greener on the other side.

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