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Thread: Need Advice Interpreting Targets

  1. #1
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Need Advice Interpreting Targets

    I am working on two loads with my .270 WSM, at the range yesterday had a good day for shooting but need some help interpreting these results, Scope is Zeroed at 100yds (not 2 1/2 hi for 200yds) so when they look high they are etc....

    First is a Nosler 150gr Ballistic Silvertip, using H4831sc, CCI 250's
    Only 2nd use of a Chrony so I am wondering how to interpret these velocities also,
    at 55 gr I get a .35" group but 1" low, is this a low velocity thing?



    at 58 grains, a nice POI and probably the place to stay, what do you think of the velocities there, compared to 60gr and would you go on up beyond max for velocity reasons? I don't have the book with me right now but I think they predicted higher velocity than I am getting but the accuracy is there, mess with it or stick with it? These are 2.95 COAL and my mag max is 2.93 so can't really get away with this but it may have made a difference?



    and here's 60 grains, not bad grouping but 1 1/2" high. Is this a result of load strength, don't think there were other factors in the shooting so I'm wondering is the 55gr lower and the 60gr higher for load reasons? Can you tell I'm a new guy?



    I'm trying to understand why some seem to look for velocity or grouping over accuracy? What would you do on these results? Thanks, more on the next page
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  2. #2
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Second set of questions

    Trying to resize these photos but it didn't take yet, sorry for the scrolling, maybe in a few minutes?

    Second Load is a Hornady 110gr V-max using RL-15, and some experimentation with Primers, CCI200's and Rem 9 1/2's. Getting started I bought quite a few LR primers because the Speer book recommended CCI 200's for everything .270WSM and then I mistakenly bought a Brick(?) of Rem 9 1/2's also just LR before realizing ALL the other books say go Large Rifle "Magnum" for this caliber so I'm trying to see if I can use them with RL-15, etc. Any other advice on where the LR primer might work better than LRM would be appreciated, I have 1500 of them !?!

    So on the first target, (again zero is on center) and working up single digit powder loads I note the CCI 200's all were Hang Firing, (audible click of Firing pin before detonation) tho the accuracy was still not too bad, I'll go 9 1/2's with the rest as those fired perfectly. It was 40F outside yesterday if that factors in on Primers

    My question here is again they are 2 1/2" high on target but there are a few that group, do you agree with my notes on what to retry? #'s 6,8,and 9



    Then this bunch, would you go with 48 gr because it was more on target, or go with the group of 3,4,and 5 because they are grouped even though 1" high?



    and Finally, a good set of #'s 12,13, and 15 (a .32" group) though 3 1/2" high(?), or #11 and 14 only 2 1/4" high,
    and these were the Rem 9 1/2 LR primers, and fired nicely



    Thanks for the help and as yet I am very clueless on the Velocity factor, they are all in there if you look for em behind the grains number, but as I said earlier all were lower than the book expected velocity for these loads ??
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  3. #3

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    FWIW, I'd want at least 3k for the 150's and 3400 with the 110's out of a WSM hull.

    With those speeds, you might as well be running a 7-08 and be saving a bunch of powder.

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    kodiakrain:

    If I'm telling you something you already know, I beg your pardon.

    Your rifle is sighted-in for a particular range and a particular load. Each load is different, (unless you're lucky.) (My 280 Rem. shoots 4 different loads, to the same POI, generally speaking.) (One might be 2.5 inches high, at 100 yds. and the others 2.75, or 2 inches high, but I can use them all with the SAME sight-in.)

    How high a load is on the target compared to another load doesn't mean the velocity is higher or lower. It can be that way due to the barrel time, or perhaps other factors.

    Your velocities ARE low for those bullet weights in the 270 WSM according to the data in my Hodgdon loading manual. You should do better, but I wouldn't try for more than close to the maximum velocities in your loading data.

    It might be difficult to get FL velocities with hand loads in any of the WSMs.

    I think you have the right approach, working up, and watching, and questioning everything. If everything you tried, went like clockwork, you wouldn't learn much.

    It sounds like you're having fun. I know I am, with the loading projects I've got going, now.

    Smitty of the North
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  5. #5
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Having Fun for sure

    Yes, I am having a great time learning and shooting a lot more than before, and
    No, I did not know what you just explained Smitty but I get it now, thanks

    Any ideas on what I should try to get velocities up, things like the Primer change from LR to LRmagnum?
    Other powders maybe, or is it mainly keep loading up a bit, carefully.

    I am not totally sure of the Chrony either, (tho I know that sounds like a cheap excuse) but I've only just set it up and started firing thru it, may need to figure out how to "Zero it" ???? or check it against someone else's. I ran some numbers by the forum on another thread thinking someone would notice if those were low, like 950fps for .22LR and 1250fps for .22LRmagnum along with some factory stuff in .270wsm

    Hard to believe I pulled a Factory bullet and it was loaded like ten above the book max. Funny thing is I would be real happy with some of these loads if i didn't get that Chrony, but it is one more statistic to play with
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  6. #6

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    http://www.barnesbullets.com/Copper_Manual4/

    This is a good online resource to give you an idea of how fast things should be going.

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default thanks

    Thanks for the link 270,
    As I recall those sound similar to the book #'s, and I am way under those speeds, Where are my loads going wrong to launch so slow?, I can take lots of criticism by the way like, "What the heck are you using RL-15 for....?"

    I loaded some more VMax last night and checking the case capacity could only fit two more grains of powder than the max anyway without compressing a load which I don't think I'll mess with( this was with IMR 4350, not RL-15 which leaves a lot of room for more). I still only went 1/2 grains over the max load at my top end, but this time went with three shot groups and will check again on my chrony.

    Also my Chrony is about twelve ft down range and I notice the book #'s are "Muzzle Velocity" so is my reading supposed to be compared to book Muzzle Vel?


    So I imagine I should experiment with Powder first, I was reading up last night in Propellant Profiles and it seems IMR 4350 may be a better Velocity producer than RL-15 with a WSM case, at least it loads a lot more towards capacity of the case. So I tried 20 of those w/Fed215 LRM primers alongside 20 of RL-15 with Rem 9 1/2 LR's to compare. Interesting that IMR 4350 had numbers for quite a few more grains to hit max. I have only RL-15 and IMR 4350, from what I can use by the Hornady book. Also have only RL-19, Rl-22, and H4831sc to experiment.

    Any comments on how this Primer question factors in to velocity??
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  8. #8

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    Kodiak,

    I normally don't do this, but this is a QL work up (using defaults) for the 110VMAX. Keep in mind I am using defaults, so this is just to give you an idea of what is going on. Do not accept these numbers as gospel!

    RL19 and 110 VMAX
    Code:
    Cartridge          : .270 WSM
    Bullet             : .277, 110, Hornady V-MAX 22720
    Useable Case Capaci: 75.557 grain H2O = 4.906 cm³
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
    Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
    Powder             : Alliant Reloder-19
    
    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
    
    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
    
    -20.0   79    55.20   2741    1836   30792  10149     86.8    1.428
    -18.0   81    56.58   2810    1929   32857  10500     88.2    1.392
    -16.0   83    57.96   2879    2025   35057  10842     89.6    1.356
    -14.0   85    59.34   2948    2123   37409  11176     90.9    1.321
    -12.0   87    60.72   3018    2224   39916  11498     92.1    1.281
    -10.0   89    62.10   3087    2328   42581  11809     93.3    1.242
    -08.0   91    63.48   3157    2434   45453  12106     94.4    1.205
    -06.0   93    64.86   3226    2543   48509  12388     95.4    1.169
    -04.0   95    66.24   3296    2653   51756  12655     96.3    1.135
    -02.0   97    67.62   3365    2766   55198  12903     97.1    1.102  ! Near Maximum !
    +00.0   99    69.00   3435    2881   58868  13133     97.8    1.070  ! Near Maximum !
    +02.0  101    70.38   3504    2998   62785  13343     98.4    1.039  ! Near Maximum !
    +04.0  103    71.76   3572    3117   66970  13532     98.9    1.009  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +06.0  105    73.14   3641    3238   71443  13698     99.4    0.980  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +08.0  107    74.52   3709    3360   76230  13841     99.7    0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +10.0  109    75.90   3777    3484   81356  13959     99.9    0.925  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    
    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    +Ba     99    69.00   3600    3166   69957  13011    100.0    0.991  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    -Ba     99    69.00   3216    2526   48081  12590     91.4    1.172
    Here is a load work up for RL15 and the 110 VMAX.
    Code:
    Cartridge          : .270 WSM
    Bullet             : .277, 110, Hornady V-MAX 22720
    Useable Case Capaci: 75.557 grain H2O = 4.906 cm³
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
    Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
    Powder             : Alliant Reloder-15
    
    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
    
    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
    
    -20.0   69    48.00   2805    1922   33591  10001     95.7    1.396
    -18.0   71    49.20   2867    2008   35640  10259     96.6    1.365
    -16.0   72    50.40   2929    2095   37796  10505     97.3    1.332
    -14.0   74    51.60   2990    2184   40064  10737     98.0    1.295
    -12.0   76    52.80   3051    2273   42449  10955     98.6    1.259
    -10.0   78    54.00   3111    2364   44956  11158     99.0    1.225
    -08.0   79    55.20   3170    2455   47591  11345     99.4    1.192
    -06.0   81    56.40   3229    2547   50362  11516     99.7    1.161
    -04.0   83    57.60   3287    2640   53274  11670     99.9    1.131
    -02.0   84    58.80   3345    2733   56335  11806    100.0    1.102  ! Near Maximum !
    +00.0   86    60.00   3402    2826   59553  11926    100.0    1.074  ! Near Maximum !
    +02.0   88    61.20   3458    2920   62937  12041    100.0    1.047  ! Near Maximum !
    +04.0   90    62.40   3513    3014   66496  12153    100.0    1.021  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +06.0   91    63.60   3567    3108   70240  12263    100.0    0.996  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +08.0   93    64.80   3621    3203   74181  12370    100.0    0.972  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +10.0   95    66.00   3675    3298   78329  12474    100.0    0.949  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    
    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    +Ba     86    60.00   3513    3014   69100  11563    100.0    1.003  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    -Ba     86    60.00   3237    2560   49902  12090     98.0    1.167

  9. #9
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default More Velocity, Why?

    I got back out this afternoon and firing my adjustments from the last got some better velocity,
    Still about 150 fps below the Hornady bk expected velocities ??

    I changed powder to IMR 4350, for them twenty and used Fed 215, a lg rifle magnum primer. Also twenty with RL-15 and Remington 9 1/2 's (a non magnum primer),

    I guess my question is "If I am shooting 1" groups but only getting 3170fps (at 55 gr RL-15) and 1.1" with 3200fps at 56gr, using Rem91/2's".......

    Why go for more velocity? Sorry, I know that is a basic question but Really, I have no idea?

    My groups with the IMR 4350 and Fed215 primers at the top two grain levels
    63grains pulled 3185fps and grouped .73 inches, and the book Max of 64gr had 3260fps and a .70 group over three round groups

    I am tempted to go higher to see what I can get but don't know the Velocity Argument yet, so less than 1 inch groups and 3200fps seems fine to me, right???????
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post
    Yes, I am having a great time learning and shooting a lot more than before, and
    No, I did not know what you just explained Smitty but I get it now, thanks

    Any ideas on what I should try to get velocities up, things like the Primer change from LR to LRmagnum?
    Other powders maybe, or is it mainly keep loading up a bit, carefully.

    I am not totally sure of the Chrony either, (tho I know that sounds like a cheap excuse) but I've only just set it up and started firing thru it, may need to figure out how to "Zero it" ???? or check it against someone else's. I ran some numbers by the forum on another thread thinking someone would notice if those were low, like 950fps for .22LR and 1250fps for .22LRmagnum along with some factory stuff in .270wsm

    Hard to believe I pulled a Factory bullet and it was loaded like ten above the book max. Funny thing is I would be real happy with some of these loads if i didn't get that Chrony, but it is one more statistic to play with
    I'm not sure I said it right.

    When I said, "How high a load is on the target compared to another load doesn't mean the velocity is higher or lower. It can be that way due to the barrel time, or perhaps other factors.", I didn't mean that velocity didn't effect trajectory.

    I'd guess that your Chrony isn't far off, unless you have a reason to think so. I'm not sure if those Rimfire Velocities are Low or not. It's possible, and worth finding out though. I hope someone else will respond, on this.

    As far as I know, Magnum primers are most suitable for large case capacities, and/or Ball Powders. Generally speaking, you increase velocity with different loading data. I think that most people want Ball Park velocity for the cartridge, unless there's a reason not to.

    For example, I expect my 7 Mag. to do better than my 280 Rem. It's not a beeg thing with me, but if it doesn't, having a 7 Mag. seems pointless.

    Factory Loads may/probably use different powders, that aren't available for handloading. The factories have the facilities to test powders for themselves and use whatever they like.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  11. #11
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Your 150g loads are slower than what I got out of my 270 WSM. The great thing about hand loading is, you have a couple very accurate loads there. I'm sure they have a mild recoil at those velocities. In MY RIFLE I get right in the 3k range give or take a little.

    You will learn your rifle and start to get a feel for your max loads. Sometimes your rifle will max out before a published max and sometimes you will need to try working up a little hotter and watching velocity and for pressure signs. You will know when to back off, your bolt will be hard to open and the recoil will be extra stiff.

    I use Magnum Primers on all my WSMs, on Kodiak with all that rain even more reason to use magnum primers.

    As far as hang fires, I would not use any primer that did not function correctly.

    Different powders will definitely change both volume and velocity.

    I select the bullet I want to use, then I look at recommended velocity.

    Velocity is what I solve for when reloading, looking for the right combo out all variables and have them come together in less than an inch at 100 yards at a given velocity.
    If I do this I'm happy.

    Steve

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post
    I got back out this afternoon and firing my adjustments from the last got some better velocity,
    Still about 150 fps below the Hornady bk expected velocities ??
    Now you are seeing what most of us already know. Just because Hornady puts it in a book, does mean it's true in the real world. Barnes does the same thing. The loads they list often don't come close to what happens when you actually shoot over a chrono. A chronograph is a blessing, and a curse.

  13. #13
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Yeah

    The book thing is wierd for sure, especially all the warnings about going over Max, I understand the liability issue in our Country Full of Litigation these days but wish there was somewhere I could find good reliable info. Then there is the "your own rifle" part which I understand and is why I am reloading in the first place.
    Seems I am putting a lot of time and powder into the low range loads that is a waste of time but I have a lot to learn so will keep going from min to max until I get more of a feel for it all. Really leaning toward starting in the mid range and going up as the velocity at low grain amt's are pretty weak.

    Again, on the Chrony, when it is placed 12-15 ft out I shouldn't expect Muzzle Velocity right? have you guys ever placed it right outside the muzzle, like so close the muzzle blast goes right through it, and you get an accurate Muzzle Velocity reading? ( or is it) Or will I blow my Chrony out trying to get blast past the second sensor?? The distance of twelve feet or six inches is very noticeable with my Single Six .22 firing through it.

    I think it is reading well as the speeds go up incremently with powder increase but have no other way of knowing if it is working accurately until I have someone with an Oehler stop by the range at the same time, like in Kodiak that may never happen. Mine is a ProChrono $120 model and I really like it so far very glad I have it anyway.

    Oh Well, still havin' fun, Thanks for all the help and advice.
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  14. #14

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    It is my understanding that muzzle velocity is always measured 12-15 feet from the ACTUAL muzzle. Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I have never heard of physically placing your Chronograph right at the muzzle. The differece in the readings would be neglible, if even measurable, anyway IMO.

  15. #15
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Default

    The accepted range to place a chrono is on average 10 to 12 feet. This is considered muzzle, even though you are a few feet away. If you try to use it closer you will most likely get erratic reading from the escaping gases and residue, possibly even damaging your chrono.
    There is an expected error of .5 to 1 percent. Use it as a guide and don't try to reach exact number. About the only way I know to check your chrono would be to line up two and shoot through both and compare numbers.
    I think you might be over thinking it.

    I start out by loading up one grain at a time to max then bumping up .5 grain increments until I reach my desired velocity or see pressure signs.

    I then start loading multiple rounds for shooting groups.

    As you load for your rifle, over time you will start to have a good idea on where to start and when to say when. Just go slow, ask questions, and keep shooting. Every bad round I fire down range is not wasted, but is a chance to practice form, and shooting technique.


    Are you going to hunt with that 270wsm and kill more than paper? If so try this...

    Get a box of 140g Barnes TSXs and load them up with some of that RL22 you have and a CCI250 primer and go forth and enjoy.
    Work up to this charge.


    Steve

  16. #16

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    Agreed on the 10ft for the chrono. The Muzzle blast will knock it over if it's any closer for me.

  17. #17
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Yep, huntin' for sure

    Thanks Steve, I will work up that load there, and I am planning to hunt like crazy with this .270WSM. Actually the reason I bought it figuring the ballistics make it a great rifle for a wide range of Kodiak region animals.

    I'll be chasing Black Bear in a few weeks over on the Mainland, a Bull Elk in Oct. as well as my full compliment of Blacktails around the island and maybe a Long Walk up from the beach to regist Mt Goat if all goes well this year. All with this rifle, so that is why I am tearing into reloading as I need several different loads for these hunts.

    I currently have Nosler 160gr partitions to work on for the Elk, am working currently on either 130, 140, or 150 gr Hornady's and Speer using them to learn the reloading process before I start on Nosler or Barnes to hunt Blk. Bear. (may take my Hornady 140grSST or Speer 150gr BTSP after them, as I have them pretty dialed now)

    Am playing around with both Hornady 110gr Vmax or Barnes 110g TTSX loads which I would like to use on Blacktails, and maybe the Wolves I am praying to run into over on the AK Pen this summer while on anchor between BlackCod trips.

    Not sure what to use on Goat as I hear they don't go down easy but I need a Very Accurate and maybe longer range load?

    Please feel free to send me any info you have on different bullets you guys have used in 270WSM, I have a ton of "Work to Do", Gonna have so much fun figuring that all out, eh?

    So yep, I'll Be Killin' Lots Of Paper this summer!
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  18. #18
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Sounds like you have a plan. One point to consider is each caliber has a given weight bullet that works best in it. Once you get more than 20 grains on either side of that you are most often better served by getting another rifle. Can have too many anyway right.

    IMHO the 270 is built around a 130 grain bullet.
    30-06 and other 30 calibers like 180 grainers.

    For goats I would look at some 150g Swift A-frames or those 140g TSXs. Not a big fan of tipped bullet on tough game.

    Your hunt plans sounds awesome. I'm jealous, we really enjoyed our first trip to Kodiak last fall.

    Steve

  19. #19
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Kodiak is Good Country

    Really enjoyed reading about your trip to Kodiak when I first got onto this forum I ran into that and it is good to see people appreciating the country you live in yourself, shakes the complacency out a bit. Your write ups are powerful.
    I am actually recovering from losing several of my rifles a while back and so restarting from owning a 300 Weatherby Magnum and an A-bolt 25-06, which were a good compliment I thought, this fall I could only buy one rifle first so studied hard and went 270WSM and invested in reloading for the sake of stretching that one caliber into as many animals as I could. Hoping to get another 300 something in the future but am trying to go "everything from long range Fox(90 or 100gr), to Deer(110 -130gr), to Caribou or Elk(140-160gr)," for at least a year or two until I can justify another rifle.

    The reloading stuff replaced a rifle in the safe for a little while but I think this caliber can do a lot of things, and all along I am shooting so much more at the range (due to both, reloading and low recoil caliber) and am sure this will increase my hunting success with this one caliber as my overall handling and knowledge of this one rifle pays off in the field accuracy.

    Did this with my 25-06, shot it so much I was doing amazing things with it because I knew it so well, the Weatherby, not so much as it cost and punished too much to spend enough time with.

    Am enjoying Shooting more than ever because of the Reloading thing tho
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  20. #20
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Tipped bullets or not?

    Hey another thing, if anyone has advice on what bullets they would use for certain types of game, especially in these weights, 110, 130, 150 etc. heaviest I have found for 270wsm is nosler 160 gr partitions, could you let me know, as well as why do people not like tipped bullets for heavy game, etc.

    I realize I could find this in some hunting article somewhere, but am looking for practical advice from Alaskans knowing all the conditions we hunt in. also specifics to .277 bullets

    I bought a few boxes of tipped Barnes and Noslers to see what they would do accurately learning reloading and they are pretty amazing for accuracy in comparison but what are some of the reasons for using them or not for hunting?
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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