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Thread: So which has better "stopping power" the 45-70 or the .375H&H?

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    Member arizonaguide's Avatar
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    Default So which has better "stopping power" the 45-70 or the .375H&H?

    So which has better "stopping power" at realistic BEAR ENCOUNTER and BEAR HUNTING distances, the .45-70 or the .375H&H?
    Because I had to ask.

    1.) IS there a GUN that will do BOTH?
    2.) IS the .375H&H NOT this gun?
    3.) Which IS closer to being THIS GUN, and Why?

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    With good heavy bullets I would guess both will do the job just fine.Equally handy guns in each should give about the same result. The worst protection combo I have dealt with is the 375H&H with Winchester Silver tip ammo,complete blow up of bullet at about 25 ft maybe 1/2" of penetration but the 150# blacky did die at the shot

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    Define "stopping power".
    Allen Glore

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    If you mean stopping power as in stopping a charge (DG of any kind), then were talking within 15 yards, so without a doubt, the 45-70 is superior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkbuster20 View Post
    If you mean stopping power as in stopping a charge (DG of any kind), then were talking within 15 yards, so without a doubt, the 45-70 is superior.
    How do you know this to be true? Would love to hear of your experiences with both rounds.
    Peyton, Colorado

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    Original loads or modern loads?

    Trapdoor or Marlin guide gun?

    Too many options to know for sure.

    I vote for the 375 H&H...

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    Default Let me clarify a bit...

    By stopping power I mean BEST CHANCES at a ONE SHOT STOP...at various ranges. (hopefully, of course there are no guarantees!).
    Any Guns in those calibers, any ammo commercially available. (ie: No Military rounds, depleted uranium, explosive, etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by arizonaguide View Post
    So which has better "stopping power" at realistic BEAR ENCOUNTER and BEAR HUNTING distances, the .45-70 or the .375H&H?

    1.) IS there a GUN that will do BOTH?
    2.) IS the .375H&H NOT this gun?
    3.) Which IS closer to being THIS GUN, and Why?

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    Member sledhands's Avatar
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    Default Yeah

    How do you know this. The 375 has more than 1/2 again the energy at 50 yards so does a 2600 lb brick or a 3900 lb brick squish more
    Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory.
    - General George S. Patton

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    Member Armymark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    With good heavy bullets I would guess both will do the job just fine.Equally handy guns in each should give about the same result. The worst protection combo I have dealt with is the 375H&H with Winchester Silver tip ammo,complete blow up of bullet at about 25 ft maybe 1/2" of penetration but the 150# blacky did die at the shot
    Wouldn’t the capability parameters overlap? For example, the 375 H&H will sling a 300 gn Sierra Boat tail out at 2505 according to Hogdon data. The 45-70 will launch a 300 grain Sierra HP out at 2532FPS. Let’s assume for a moment that the bullets perform equally, this velocity is where the two cartridges meet. So the configuration or performance of the bullet is the deciding factor. The 375H&H is more suited to shoot bullets in the 200-300 grain weight class. I have no experience with the 375 H&H, so is it OK to think that it is not much more than a 200 yard gun with the 300 grain bullet? The 45-70 begins to find performance benefit with heavier bullets, 300 to 450 seem common, also no more than a 200 yard gun, normally. The consensus seems to be the hard cast or low-expanding type bullet is the best choice for the 45-70. So as the cartridges find performance, the 375 would have a more useful range with lighter expanding bullets and the 45-70 more so with the heavy hard cast bullet, with the 375 flatter shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armymark View Post
    Wouldn’t the capability parameters overlap? For example, the 375 H&H will sling a 300 gn Sierra Boat tail out at 2505 according to Hogdon data. The 45-70 will launch a 300 grain Sierra HP out at 2532FPS. Let’s assume for a moment that the bullets perform equally, this velocity is where the two cartridges meet. So the configuration or performance of the bullet is the deciding factor. The 375H&H is more suited to shoot bullets in the 200-300 grain weight class. I have no experience with the 375 H&H, so is it OK to think that it is not much more than a 200 yard gun with the 300 grain bullet? The 45-70 begins to find performance benefit with heavier bullets, 300 to 450 seem common, also no more than a 200 yard gun, normally. The consensus seems to be the hard cast or low-expanding type bullet is the best choice for the 45-70. So as the cartridges find performance, the 375 would have a more useful range with lighter expanding bullets and the 45-70 more so with the heavy hard cast bullet, with the 375 flatter shooting.
    Exactly!!! But as I've heard from some folks...that the .375 is ineffective on Bear at close ranges. But, I'm NOT buying it...(with the right ammo anyway). I DO respect Amigo Will's statement about Winchester Silvertip (above) though.

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    Member Armymark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arizonaguide View Post
    Exactly!!! But as I've heard from some folks...that the .375 is ineffective on Bear at close ranges. But, I'm NOT buying it...(with the right ammo anyway). I DO respect Amigo Will's statement about Winchester Silvertip (above) though.
    I can't imagine a 300 grain Barnes TSX not having some desired effect at close range leaving the barrel of a 375H&H at 2500FPS. I've never tried it though.

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    Member sledhands's Avatar
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    Default ballistics

    .....................grains muzzle 200yd energy muzzle 200
    .375 H&H Magnum 300 2530 1979 4262 2608

    .45-70 Government 300 1810 1244 2182 1031
    .45-70 Government 405 1330 1055 1590 1001


    where is the comparison with factory loads
    Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory.
    - General George S. Patton

  13. #13

    Default I choose the 375 H&H

    with a heavily constructed bullet. The 375, as we all know, has been effectively used (shot placement) on game bigger and tougher than a brownie, Cape Buff, elephant, rhino. I'm not suggesting a solid, just a good soft point like a Swift or Nosler. Be aware, I love the 45-70, have for years, but if I had to decide, then the 375 with a 21" barrel would be fine. I would be comfortable saying that over the years, a heck of a lot more guides have used the 375. All this being said, i would rather have a short barreled .458 Win Mag with an effective muzzle brake. An old bear guide I knew, who succumbed to cancer, not claws, said he used a short barreled .458 because "It's the only round I know that will always make a bear sit down."

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    Member arizonaguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armymark View Post
    I can't imagine a 300 grain Barnes TSX not having some desired effect at close range leaving the barrel of a 375H&H at 2500FPS. I've never tried it though.
    Exactly. That's what I feel...but I keep getting told that energy and volocity doesn't mean anything....that it's all about a hardcast bullet and total penetration.

    My feeling is the perfect round expands at HIGH volocity and dumps ALL it's (huge amount) energy into the target (just before it falls out the exit wound).

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    Member Armymark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledhands View Post
    .....................grains muzzle 200yd energy muzzle 200
    .375 H&H Magnum 300 2530 1979 4262 2608

    .45-70 Government 300 1810 1244 2182 1031
    .45-70 Government 405 1330 1055 1590 1001


    where is the comparison with factory loads
    There is no comparison there. I was thinking the ability to shoot 45-70 from modern actions or perhaps the Ruger No.1. Out of the box trap door 45-70 is no comparison. What about 45-70 beside 375 from a pair of Ruger No.1's with 24 inches of barrel with the same design bullet?

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    Default remember...

    RULES: Any (best) .375 round/gun -vs- Any (best) 45-70 round/gun.

    Winner: which is Best for BOTH short range defense and (slightly) longer ranges typical of Bear hunting.

    ONE GUN, ONE ROUND. What's BEST for all BEAR related occasions?

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    Yes, I would like to hear that information also please, with some INDEPENDANT data to back it up...or at least some good anecdotal evidence. Because we're a tough/cynical crowd. Convince me the 45-70 is better.

    Snowwolfe, that's STILL the best Sig line on the internet!

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The 375H&H is a great round to be sure and if I lived in Africa I would pick it every time over the 45/70. Being I live in SE Alaska and won't allow myself to shoot a bear at even a hundred yards the 45/70 is my gun of choice. At ten to twenty yards with good bullets both will punch through both sholders of a bear. Heck at ten yards I would hope my 454 will or I'm wasteing money

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    Quote Originally Posted by arizonaguide View Post
    Exactly. That's what I feel...but I keep getting told that energy and volocity doesn't mean anything....that it's all about a hardcast bullet and total penetration.

    My feeling is the perfect round expands at HIGH volocity and dumps ALL it's (huge amount) energy into the target (just before it falls out the exit wound).
    I'm not thinking you'll find that Barnes 300 TSX in the bear. They are known for going out the other side. So what does more damage an expanded .375 TSX or a hardcast lead bullet. I'd vote for the TSX. If you could shoot a 400 grain TSX in a 45-70 lever gun at similar speeds as the lead hard cast I suspect it would be the better choice. But you can't, which is the reason hardcast lead is the king in 45-70.

    On the other hand, the odds of me carrying my .375 around while taking a hike in the woods or fishing is pretty much zero.

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    Member arizonaguide's Avatar
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    Yup, I agree. I believe an expanding 300grain bullet would do more internal damage than a hardcast 300grain. And only the .375 really has the high enough volocity to really do that between the .375 and the 45-70, correct?

    I agree a lever action would be lighter, and faster on followups, etc.

    But for a ONE SHOT KILL gun for BEAR...the .375 would be it...over the 45-70. Do I have that wrong?

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