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Thread: shooting better @ 200yds than @100????

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    Default shooting better @ 200yds than @100????

    This might sound crazy but is it possible for a rifle to print better at longer distances than closer in? Was at the range today to zero my Montana in 300winmag from 100yds to 200yds. To my surprise it seems to shoot better at 200yds.....is this possible??? I have never shot at paper at 200yds so I was kinda surprised and scratching my head over this one.
    In the Bush

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    Member c04hoosier's Avatar
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    Apparently it is possible. I don't know the physics of it, but Wayne van Zwoll wrote about exactly that recently. I believe it was in the current Guns & Ammo. If I remember when I get back to the room I will look at it again.

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    Member Hunt&FishAK's Avatar
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    .300 win mag ammo is meant to shoot flatter and better at 200 yards....look on the box and youll see. you dont ever want to sight in a 300 at 100 yards but at 200 yards.



    Release Lake Trout

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    I'm not surprised when that happens with longish bullets. My favorite 7mm Rem mag for example (it's won more than it's share of hunter benchrest shoots, BTW) often won't break an inch at 100 yards, but consistently breaks an inch at 200 and hovers close to 2 inches at 300 yards. My guess has always been that the long bullets simply haven't settled down completely at 100 yards, but do so a bit beyond. I've seen the same with a couple of different 300 mags owned by friends. Of course, the further you shoot, the bigger the effect of tiny shooting errors, so it's easy to obscure the tighter group potential with shooter flubs.

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    Another thing that can happen is if your scope has its parrallax set closer to 200yds than 100, If you are not holding your head in the same exact spot each time you fire, the gun will shoot best at whatever range the parallax is set for.

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    150 yards is a CF scope factory standard for paralex. Most RF scopes are set at 60 yards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Another thing that can happen is if your scope has its parrallax set closer to 200yds than 100, If you are not holding your head in the same exact spot each time you fire, the gun will shoot best at whatever range the parallax is set for.
    I agree and have proven this to myself on scopes with an adjustable objective. It do make a difference!

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    And some brands of scope have far more parallax issues than others...

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    Member c04hoosier's Avatar
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    Default van Zwoll

    I found the article I was talking about. Here is what Wayne van Zwoll said in the March 2010 issue of Guns & Ammo:

    "Yaw produces drag, too. A bullet is in a state of yaw whenever its axis does not align exactly with its direction of travel. A twist rate faster than necessary can increase yaw and undermine both efficient flight and accuracy. Precession, or the rotation of a bullet's nose about its axis, increases drag but is generally greater near the muzzle than downrange, when the bullet's spin overcomes the physical flaws that cause precession. Like a top that "goes to sleep" as it recovers from the force that spun it, a bullet can become more stable as it travels, shedding drag and actually shooting tighter groups (in minutes of angle) at long range than it does up close. That's why a rifle that prints one-inch groups at 100 yards may give you two-inch groups at 300, even 400."

    Interesting...

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c04hoosier View Post
    I found the article I was talking about. Here is what Wayne van Zwoll said in the March 2010 issue of Guns & Ammo:

    "Yaw produces drag, too. A bullet is in a state of yaw whenever its axis does not align exactly with its direction of travel. A twist rate faster than necessary can increase yaw and undermine both efficient flight and accuracy. Precession, or the rotation of a bullet's nose about its axis, increases drag but is generally greater near the muzzle than downrange, when the bullet's spin overcomes the physical flaws that cause precession. Like a top that "goes to sleep" as it recovers from the force that spun it, a bullet can become more stable as it travels, shedding drag and actually shooting tighter groups (in minutes of angle) at long range than it does up close. That's why a rifle that prints one-inch groups at 100 yards may give you two-inch groups at 300, even 400."

    Interesting...
    This I agree with, but it is only for MOA. A rifle that shotes 2.5" groups at 100 will not shoot 2" groups at 200.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    This I agree with, but it is only for MOA. A rifle that shotes 2.5" groups at 100 will not shoot 2" groups at 200.
    My thoughts exactly.

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    Your bullet is more stable at 200 yards than at a hundred with that particular load in your rifle.

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    Post Factory ammo?

    target size to distance(or the size it appers to u) has something to how well u are holding your POA i find that for my scope settings, i need 1/2 sq's @100 and up to a 2.5 inch sq at 300....the crosshairs center easy'er.. making 4 little sq's and when there all the same size let her fly..........
    WHEN IN DOUBT> THROTTLE OUT.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by c04hoosier View Post
    I found the article I was talking about. Here is what Wayne van Zwoll said in the March 2010 issue of Guns & Ammo:

    "Yaw produces drag, too. A bullet is in a state of yaw whenever its axis does not align exactly with its direction of travel. A twist rate faster than necessary can increase yaw and undermine both efficient flight and accuracy. Precession, or the rotation of a bullet's nose about its axis, increases drag but is generally greater near the muzzle than downrange, when the bullet's spin overcomes the physical flaws that cause precession. Like a top that "goes to sleep" as it recovers from the force that spun it, a bullet can become more stable as it travels, shedding drag and actually shooting tighter groups (in minutes of angle) at long range than it does up close. That's why a rifle that prints one-inch groups at 100 yards may give you two-inch groups at 300, even 400."

    Interesting...
    After Wayne VZ wrote an article about pet loads for the 30-06, listed several, but closed with something to the effect he had not been to the range to test the loads yet, I lost any inclination to listen to him...

    Several points are incorrect in the quote.

    Excess twist rate can keep a bullet nose high and create excess drag... But only at very long range does it even start to enter a reasonable discussion. (a bullet will attempt to continue to spin about its central axis no matter which way it gets turned)

    Yaw is generally used in relation to lateral movement about the axis. Pitch is a better term for a distance velocity-robbing, nose-high attitude. Precession is the proper term for the rotational instability, though WVZ's definition is partly incorrect. Precession can be nose in or nose out, eccentric or concentric, and there are other finer details.

    Bullets are not generally considered to recover from excess precession caused by too much twist. Ordinary precession from properly twisted barrels, yes. That is where going to sleep comes in. It still allows the bullet to shoot slightly more accurately at distance, but not to the same level parallax or matching sights to target can.
    art

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    My thoughts exactly.
    Me three. Once a bullet is off course, even a little, at 100 yds, it's not going to adjust back to the center from 100 yds out to 200 yds. Its rate of deviation might decrease, but it's not going to correct itself--unless you have a GPS-guided bullet. This has to be a sighting, shooting, scope issue where the shooter simply is shooting better at 200 yds than 100 yds.

    If you can put two targets out inline--one at 100 yds and one at 200 yds--to where you are hitting both targets in succession with the same bullets, and the groups out further are tighter than in closer, I'll eat my words. I don't think that will happen.

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    Default length

    I have had the same experience as brownbear with long bullets. I had a 30/06 that wouldnt group any bullet very well until i tried the barnes 200 grn. this is a longer bullet than those i had been using and it did shoot better at 200 than it did at 100, i always just assumed it was because of bullet length and it didnt stabilize completely??

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    I agree with BB and others... I have loaded Berger VLD's in my .308, and at 100 yds, it shot 1.75" At 200 yds, it shot 1.75 inches, and at 300 yds, it shot 1.5." I have had several loads that the groups actually got better at longer ranges. Do the physics explain? I have no idea, but groups are groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt&FishAK View Post
    .300 win mag ammo is meant to shoot flatter and better at 200 yards....look on the box and youll see. you dont ever want to sight in a 300 at 100 yards but at 200 yards.
    Not trying to get into a pissing match, but this is not true at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    I have had the same experience as brownbear with long bullets. I had a 30/06 that wouldnt group any bullet very well until i tried the barnes 200 grn. this is a longer bullet than those i had been using and it did shoot better at 200 than it did at 100, i always just assumed it was because of bullet length and it didnt stabilize completely??
    An unstable bullet at 100 yards will be less stable at 200...

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    Default paralax

    OK...I was using off the shelf Federals with Barnes 180 tsx..the rifle has a Luepold Vx111 30mm 4.5x14 tube with the adjustment for focus on the side....it is the "long range" Luepold...using Talley rings and bases. I have the habit of moving my eyes side to side while looking in the scope to see how paralax is at a given range...this focus adjustment on the side of the scope decreases paralax when adjusted to the power your set on. When shooting at 200yds my power was set to 14. When shooting at 100yds my power was set to 14. Could it be that 14 power is just to much for 100yds and paralax couldnt be adjusted out at that distance/power setting. Ive got a Luepold 6.5x20 on my varmit rifle and theres an adjustment on the front for yardage with infinity being the highest..I believe the side adjustment on my 4.5x14 has the same purpose as the forward adjustment on my 6.5x20. Are these adjustments "true" adjustments for paralax or just made to help take some of it away? I can tell a diference when turning my head side to side when looking through the scope.
    I think I didnt have my scope adjusted correctly for shooting 100yds and at 200yds it was right and thats what happened Does this sound logical or am I way off base.
    In the Bush

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