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Thread: Neck Sizing Issues Maybe?

  1. #1
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Neck Sizing Issues Maybe?

    My first twenty rounds neck sized only, third time firing them total. Had some minor bolt tightness that I felt was because of the Neck Sizing (worked with a Specific RCBS Neck Sizing Die) but as I ejected this one (photos below) and two others I am concerned with the markings from bolt face.
    They ejected a "smidge tight" tho I have had factory rounds eject as tight.

    Noticing some of the comments on other WSM loads from factory being hotter than others I am wondering if you guys can analyze these pics of the worst marked round and tell me what you think,

    Is this primer looking cratered? I am judging by comparing to Factory Fed stuff I have fired and it looks ok in comparison, but I can't really tell with my eyesight a bit fuzzy ??

    Here's the stats:

    Hornady 140gr SST's
    CCI 250's (hand set with RCBS tool)
    RL-19 at 56.5 grains
    Also loaded some 59.1 gr which did not eject tight or leave marks
    (Hornady book has options of 53.9, 56.5, 59.1 and 61.7 as redzone load)

    The book COL is 2.785" but I went to mag length 2.875 for some and over to 2.90" for a few, Total of twenty rounds only three were tighter ejecting and left bolt marks similar or lighter than this pictured

    Finding OAL to the Lands with Hornady tool I measure these as .09" off the lands (the 2.90 COAL rds and 1.3" off the lands for the 2.875 COAL)

    Used a Hornady Comparator to get these "off the lands" #'s

    One of the marked rds was using IMR 4350 at 56grs which is also midrange in Hornady book (options 53.4, 56.0, and 58.6 as Redzone) this is the one at 2.875 COAL

    I also measured the cases afterward oal length, neck width, shoulder width, and head width and found them all exactly the same compared to other fired rounds

    I did not trim them as they were at or below the book "case trim length" of 2.090, and still are after firing

    These may be too much info but measurements were, Fired case length 2.087, neck width .315", shoulder width .543", and head width .557" (that's measure just up from the case head at about the area that they seperate in book pics






    Thanks for input and any info/experience with .270WSM or other WSM oddities

  2. #2

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    It looks like you have an extractor mark but your primer looks fine. There is no cratering and the edges are well rounded. Cratering is a raised lip or edge around the firing pin indent. You'll know it when you see it, but if your eyes aren't as good as they used to be (like mine) minor cratering can be tough to see. I look for the shadow or feel for it with my fingernail.

    Not sure why you have the extractor mark (it might be related to your slighty stiif extraction), but IMO, your primers do not look like they are showing any sign of excessive pressure. I have seen some occasional ejector marks on my RUM brass from loads that I believe to be below max loads, but I wouldn't necessarily ignore them.

    I'm sure we'll get some other good words of wisdom.

    -Mark

  3. #3
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Two New methods at once

    So I am doing two new methods in these rounds, Neck Sizing which I figured might account for a tighter fit, and no, I didn't run them first (as in chamber and extract them ahead of time to check out) as I suppose I should have,

    Also using a longer than Book COAL for the first time, 15 rounds lengthened to max magazine length and 5 out beyond that a bit,2.90

    Hence the nervousness about tight chambering and extraction, it didn't seem that tight but the marks seem to indicate a problem?

    If anything I would have thought I still had a bit of lube on them as I don't tumble or solvent wipe but just hand wipe with rags my brass after sizing (using "One Shot") and I had just wiped down my barrel pretty good with Butch's Bore Shine so maybe it was just really squeaky clean? heh heh

  4. #4
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    Default

    Even if you neck size only sooner or later you will have to FL resize your brass so they can chamber easily. Your primers look like the pressures are still low. Doubt you have anything wrong at all that your resizing die will not fix.

    Why are you only neck sizing?
    Tennessee

  5. #5
    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Default

    I think you may have pushed the longer ones into the lands and that cause a pressure spike that left the marks. Seat one to the same length that caused trouble, chamber it into the rifle you are going to fire it from, extract it. Measure COAL again, if it is shorter at all you are touching the lands and seating the bullet further into the case when you chamber it.

    I loaded some Hornaday Interbonds 150gr today in my 30-06 and noticed that I had to seat them over .030 further into the case than the same 150gr Nosler accubond.

    IMHO Freebore is a critical measurement in reloading.

    I could be wrong, have been before....

    Be Safe

    Steve

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    Default

    Check the headspace...may need to bump the shoulder a bit when neck sizing only. Primer does not indicate high pressure, but extractor mark may indicate you are out of headspace with that piece of brass.

  7. #7

    Default 270 WSM case sizing

    I shoot and reload for a 270 WSM (Sako 75). If you do some research (may have to dig deep), I think you'll find (as I did) that it is recommended to FL resize every time.

    I had some "tight" chambering too, even though I WAS FL sizing. Found that I needed to screw the sizing die down just about as far as possible (do this gradually) to get the correct re-sizing done on the case, BUT, you want to watch that you're not setting the shoulder back, but perhaps just bumping it a tad. I'm using Redding dies, which are known for their tight tolerances.

    If I can find the reference for this info, I'll post another reply.

    And BTW, I think your primers look fine, as others have said.
    In God We Trust.

  8. #8

    Default 270 WSM follow-up

    Google "resizing 270 wsm". Other people have had similar issues. Here are a couple links to some discussion forums. And ... after thinking about it a bit more, I DO bump the shell holder against the bottom of the FL sizing die.

    http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=60605
    http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=297855
    http://forum.gon.com/archive/index.php/t-416500.html
    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-137764.html

    Good luck.

    And hey ... let us know how you make out, OK?
    In God We Trust.

  9. #9
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default More details

    Thanks for the input, I'll try your idea tnt, Stid

    More Details, I am shooting a Sako 85, Stainless Barrel

    Am neck Sizing for two reasons, (read about it in the Hornady book and their argument was convincing for following) to prolong Brass life a bit, knowing I will be FL Resizing every third or fourth time, these rounds had only been fired two times after FL resizing and then Neck sized this once

    then secondly and More Importantly, it seems to make sense that after the brass has been fire-formed to my rifle then to Full Length resize is to go back away from the custom fit of once fired brass. Realizing they may be a bit tight and wouldn't be the method for hunting rounds, (Opinions welcome)

    I measured the OAL as in distance to the lands with the Hornady OAL gauge and used a Comparator to find Ogive and I am "pretty sure" they were both away from the lands by a fair distance, .09" away on the longer rounds that were over the Max magazine length, and .13" away on the rounds that still fit the magazine. I'm still getting that figured as I did have the bullet stick in the chamber when using the Hornady OAL gauge. Had to push out with cleaning rod not very hard a push but maybe they were stuck in there a ways? I just bought a dowel rod to try that more simple method and will post the comparison tonight.

    Am using RCBS Neck Sizing Die and RCBS Seating die, and have been lubing necks with brush rolled in a tad of RCBS lube prior to sizing

    Not sure what is meant by "Check the Headspace", Hunt & Fish can you describe,

  10. #10
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    Default

    If you had a bullet stick in the rifling when chambering, then you are too long and this can raise pressure some. Although your primers arn't showing pressure the raised part of the case that the bolt is draging on is. I don't like brass flow and will drop pressure by backing off on something. In your case it may be just the OAL is too long. Sticky bolt lift combined with wiping on the base of the case is a sure sign of high pressure and I have seen it with factory ammo from factory guns. Doesn't mean it's going to blow up your gun but it's higher pressure than I like and isn't real good for the gun.

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    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    I use the RCBS Precision Micrometer to measure my ammo.

    I take the headspace tool and drop in a fired piece of brass.


    You can see in this photo that the fired brass is between .002 and .003 longer than Spec.


    This last photo shows that I have resized the brass back to SAMI Spec. I sized back about .002 to ensure proper function in field conditions.

    This tool took the guessing out reloading for me.

    Good Luck

    Steve

    Steve

  13. #13
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default getting mysterious

    Ok, got a Precision Mic on order, after messing with the Hornady OAL gauge and a dowel rod with bullet tip held in place I came up with these numbers. Hornady method using a Hornady 140gr SST bullet, 3.01" COAL including the tip, and with the comparator attached to Caliper 2.39" to ogive.

    Using the Dowel rod method it came out 2.99" tip to bolt for COAL, "To The Lands"

    So this seems to be definitely NOT a Too Long issue for these marks in pics above but something to do with Neck sizing?

    Remember, I had three out of twenty rounds both chamber and extract a "little bit tightly" and found these marks on them afterward. The rest chambered and extracted fine. One of the tight ones was a cooler load, 56.5 of RL19 (versus some that were 59.1gr of RL-19 which had no problems), these were .09" off the lands according to my hornady measurements to Ogives. 2.90" COAL

    The other tight ones were even shorter 2.875 COAL or 1.3" short of the lands and only 56gr of IMR 4350 (a middle of the road powder load by Hornady book)

    None of the hotter loads of 59.1 RL-19 at 2.90 Coal were tight going in or coming out after firing??

    So tonight after all this measuring I Neck Size (second time Neck Size for this brass, after two Full Length Resizes 5th time total firings of factory Federal brass) a few cartridges and try seating one way long and chambering it to see if it pushes it back in with no results, chambered fine didn't shorten it.

    Then try loading one with 55gr IMR 4350, a fairly light load to make sure it wasn't compressing powder or anything and slowly seat the bullet going all the way in to 2.801" COAL to be conservative. The book length from Hornady for this 140 gr SST is 2.785" but listed in front page of 270WSM is max COL of 2.860" So I should be fine with this round

    Chamber it and sure enough the bolt gets tight pushing it in and extracting it and the marks are on the face of cartridge exactly same as pictures in Initial Post above !!!

    So I try a Factory round from Federal (130 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip) and it slips in and out just fine,

    Here are comparison measurements of these two rounds ?? WHAT ??

    Tight Round Neck Sized Federal Factory (easy fit)
    2.801 COAL 2.82 COAL
    .301 Neck top .301
    .309 Neck base .307
    .54 Shoulder base width .534
    .55 Head or base by rim .547
    1.658 Length Head-Shoulder 1.66

    Got to be something about the Neck Sizing I figure by the minor amounts wider at Shoulder base and Neck Base right??

    Hate to just set that neck sizer die aside for good but I may go back to FL Sizing unless someone has an idea or two.

    Thanks for all the articles and links I am learning a lot about .270 WSM

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    You might try partial FL sizing by adjusting the sizer until it just touches the shoulder or just a litte shy of touching and see what that does.

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default I'll try that

    Thanks RBuck I will try that next, I am going to find another Caliper also to make sure mine is working accurately and wait for a precision Mic to come on order.
    To answer your earlier post, a bullet stuck against the rifling when I was trying to find the lands measurement, not when chambering a round. So using a tool that has a bullet loosely held in a modified case I push it all the way in against the lands and when pulling it back out the bullet stuck and had to be lightly pushed back out.

    For some reason I don't feel like that Hornady OAL gauge is very reliable as it just seems funky to use getting a measurement as critical as the distance to lands

    Also for clarification, Those numbers on my last post (the comparison of factory to my handload near the bottom) were supposed to be spread out more, as in the number on the left is for the tight round, then the distance being measured is in the middle and the number on the right is for the Federal Factory round if that makes sense for anyone

  16. #16
    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    I know it's doubtful, especially as RL19 is a fairly clean powder at magnum pressures, but is your chamber clean? Specifically the neck and throat?

    I had pressure signs show up in mild 220 Swift loads after a few hours at a prarie dog colony. As I'd shot these loads for well over a year with no problems, I couldn't understand it. I hit the chamber with a quick shot of CLP and pulled a bore snake through it and the problem went away. Shot another 80 rounds or so and it started again, so I put the gun up. When I got to cleaning it I looked at the chamber with a borescope and I could see a ring of carbon deposit at the end of the chamber where it transitions from the neck to the throat. I imagine the reduced diameter raises pressure as the throat can't expand all the way to release the bullet, and it was just enough to cause smears on the head and sticky extraction.

  17. #17
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Pretty Clean

    I'll check this out more Diesel Nut, but I am big on cleaning, usually run a Boresnake every three rounds when firing newly loaded rounds for accuracy tests, just to help let the barrel cool and I imagine clean as better than not, then afterwards in my shop I am pretty big on cleaning. Though I don't use a brush much if I can get clean rags by pushing through so maybe I need to do a good scrubbing(?)

    Just before this time at the range I tried out some Butchs Bore Shine having just found some, and cleaned it pretty good as well. The first sticky round was only about 5th round fired, then about seven rds later another couple were mildly sticky, all the others chambered and extracted easily. But I didn't clean til finished with the twenty rounds I had with me.

    i'll check it out tho, thks

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    Well, you have me stumped. I sure would like to know what it is if you can get it figured out. Normally something like this is from cases to long, Oal to long or small dia throat or thick neck brass. You might try measuring a factory case outside neck dia and a fired non sized case to see how much expansion you get in the neck after firing if you haven't already done so. Good luck.

  19. #19
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    When you neck size, you arenít pushing the shoulder back or sizing it.

    Neck sizing usually works fine when you shoot your handloads in the same rifle they were fired in. And, the case fits the chamber better, and thatís good. However, after neck sizing for several rounds, the case may fit too tight for easy chambering, and you will may need to FL resize them. That, I think depends largely on how hot your loads are. Itís possible that you would be replacing your cases before you needed to FL resize. It just depends on how hard or easy it is to chamber a loaded round.

    I donít have any of the Short Fat type cartridges, but Iíve heard that they are often harder to size, because the brass is thicker. ??? And, as you know they are often loaded hot, so the pressure may be greater. Either, of these things, could mean that itís better to FL size every time, but thatís just speculation on my part.

    Those RUB MARKS on the case head, tell me that the case needs to be sized smaller, because itís too large for the chamber. A sized case may chamber a little tight, and a loaded round may chamber a little tight, and a fired case can be HARD to extract, ALL BECAUSE it wasnít sized enough in the first place.

    In a batch of brass, some pieces may fit fine, and OTHERS not. Each and every case is not, all the same, and it doesnít always size, or expand the same in the chamber. You gotta do it so, they ALL fit.

    You donít need to purchase a lot of tools to measure things to know that a case doesnít fit. You could feel that, and you have rub marks to prove you didn't just imagine it.

    I think you just need to size it more/enough, that it will fit better. In this case, FL size it. Thatís what Iíd do, anyway.

    Rub marks are also a ďpressure signĒ when a hot load expands the case so much on firing that itís hard to extract, so you were wise to address that possibility too.

    Smitty of the North
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    You can't out-give God.

  20. #20

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    Spot on Smitty.

    Perhaps kodiakrain will finally get around to FL sizing when he's done messing around with everything else that doesn't work (no offense intended). Why not just try it with one case?

    If you're backing off the FL die 1/4 turn after it contacts the shell holder, then you may not be FL sizing enough (as I said earlier and as Smitty suggests). That was my situation with a Sako 75 in 270 WSM. Go ahead and start with the die backed off 1/4 turn and then screw the die in 1/16 and size again. Then test it in your chamber. Still tight? Turn it down another 1/16. Keep screwing the FL die down just a little at a time 'til the brass fits the chamber, and don't be surprised if you end up with the die contacting the shell holder. That's where I wound up, and so have many WSM reloaders apparently.

    Whattaya got to lose, one case?

    Good luck.
    In God We Trust.

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