After refreshing the site, I see that them message was posted twice.
Last edited by Kabluewy; 05-07-2006 at 20:04.
Reason: double posting - oops
458 Short Mag
Yeah, I think I can even fix it on this new system.
This 458 2" is a good idea, or the 450 Marlin. The difference is the belt. the 450 marlin has an extra wide belt to prevent it being chambered in the long (H&H length) straight belted mags, such as the 8mm Rem or the 7mm STW or 358 STA. But if you're building your own that wont be a consideration. Giving up a half inch of powder space will limit it to about 400 grains at 2000 fps, as you said. With 450 Marlin brass available from Hornady that would be best and save all the trimming. For me I think I would rather try the 350-416, I think it's called the 416 Express. And I think Ken Waters did some testing on it in his pet loads book. He may be the proginator of this round, also. That would be 350 grains at about 2000 fps, so not quite the horse power of the 450. As to the Action, outstanding! The Rugers are very strong and if the newer MK II with CRF so much the better. I once had a 350 Rem in on older Ruger M77 and it was a tack driver. The round is still useful inspite of some of the comments about it. If you have an inexpensive action you're halfway there, time to experiment. Good luck and good shootin'.
You are right about the 416 Express. Ken Waters did write and article on it, which is in his Pet Loads Book. I reviewed it again. Although interesting, it's a wildcat. Several small problems with wildcats adds up, such as more costly dies, finding a reamer, additional work with the brass, resale value, etc. Factory ammo is an issue too. The 450 is available in Hornady ammo and Buffalo Bore.
But more importantly to me is that I want all the extra thump the 450 has to offer. Also very important is the availability of .458 bullets. There are several good flat nose 400-405 gr 45-70 bullets available, and also lots of good hard cast gas check 45 bullets. This selection is just not available in 416.
Another thing I suspect, but may never know for sure is that I think most of the 416 bullets are made with Africa and higher velocity in mind. In other words I think the bullets are harder to expand, and may not be the performers I'm looking for at 416 Express velocity. Whereas the 45 caliber bullets come in the heavies for Africa, and also the 45-70 class, and some in between.
In 45 caliber, I can find bullets in the soft almost pure lead swaged bullets, the soft lead jacketed bullets, the hard cast bullets, with or without the gas check, both flat nose and pointed heavier jacketed bullets, bonded jacketed bullets, solid copper bullets, etc. I should never suffer from not having some new 45 cal bullet to experiment with. But more importantly, I should be able to find a bullet that is exactly right for the intended purpose, whether low velocity plinking, or full power bear or moose loads. I remember from some of my 458 WM loads that the soft jacketed 400 gr Speer and Remington bullets were way too soft for hunting serious big game, so I used the Barnes, and some 400 gr Trophy Bonded bullets with great success.
Thanks again to Murphy and others for great feed back, and encouragment.
Originally Posted by Murphy
A wee little bit of history on the 416 Express. In 1991 I wrote Ken Waters asking what he thought about using H335 and the 300 grain Barnes X bullet in a little wildcat cartridge I was working on in 416 caliber and the 350 Remington Magnum case. I also contacted Marshall at Beartooth Bullets to see about having a 416 caliber cast bullet made that weighed around 350 grains. What Marshall came up with was one that weighed 335 grains and was to become the first 416 caliber bullet made by Beartooth Bullets. In late 1992 or early 1993 Ken Waters announced his 416 Express. He built it on the same roundtop Ruber action that I had builot mine on and I believe he used a little longer barrel than I did(mine was at 21.5"). I don't know if anything can be found in the archives over at Beartooth Bullets Forums, but Marshall will help set the record straight on the 416 Express.
The 416 Glore....
Well, Allen, I said I think Ken Waters was the first with this, perhaps he was just the first to publish his results about it. In any case, didn't mean to step on any toes. I think I remember you posting about this particular wildcat a while back but it had slipped my mind at the time I discussed it. I think it is better than 45 caliber in some regard but still limited in usefulness. The 350 case has been necked up and down to any and every caliber since it was introduced and I'm sure others have used "my" 338-350 and 375-350 and may have even written about them for all I know. No matter, us wildcatters and tinkerers just can't leave well enough alone. Anyway I do like your 416-350 and I do like the 366 Alaskan but I don't think anyone will get any money for them.
You know what I think is odd or just stupid is when a company brings out a "wildcat" cartridge for standardization, they always alter it slightly as if to prevent patent infringement. I guess the lawyers are in everything. The 416 Hoffman became the 416 Remington, the 458 American became the 450 Marlin, the 458 Lott did win out I guess. The 416 Taylor should be standardized as is, but probably won't make it. The Ultra mags a copy of the Howell series but he never got credit for them. Slightly different...Hmmmmm.