View Poll Results: Have you had actual "Hands On" spin training?

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  • Yes, as a Student, before Private Pilot rating

    31 38.75%
  • No, Only shown/told the recovery procedures

    25 31.25%
  • Yes, but only later after becoming a Flight Instructor

    6 7.50%
  • No, not important cuz it'll never happen to ME.

    1 1.25%
  • Other (please explain)

    17 21.25%
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Thread: How many folks have had actual Spin Training?

  1. #1
    Member arizonaguide's Avatar
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    Question How many folks have had actual "hands on" Spin Recovery Training?

    Since I hijacked another person's thread with this topic, I guess I'd better start one of my OWN, so here it is...

    HOW MANY folks that hold a current (or past) Private license (or above) have ACTUALLY had SPIN TRAINING in their flight training?
    I mean where you actually HAD to recover from a spin "hands on".

    Sure, many of us have been shown/performed a stall, and instructed on related spin recovery...but I'm a believer that UNDER PRESSURE (like actually IN a spin) one reverts to their training...and if you don't actually HAVE it...well.

    I'm wondering if this should ALWAYS be included in a student pilot's flight instruction much more than is common. Thoughts?

  2. #2

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    I think spins are fun, I was taught as a student pilot. It is the only way to really understand, not in your head/thinking but deep with-in your oneness of flying, that the engine has nothing what so ever to do with the aircraft flying. I used to go up to 13,000 at the back of Knik River Valley in the summer, slowly cool the engine. Then shut the engine off, and do Lazy "8's" and then spin/recover and right into another spin/recover and again right into spin/recover. You can't master the wolf-hunter turn if you can't spin.

    I always felt that flying was like Zen, "Know thy-self, and become at one with your environment". So too a skilled pilot, should become "one" with his temporary outer skin, the aircraft.

  3. #3
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    In the "Old Days," we were taught spins as a matter of course. We were told that to earn a Commercial license, one had to enter a two-turn spin and exit within ten degrees of a predetermined heading. Given that, we simply learned spins and put the anxiety behind us. And, yes - - - they were fun. Some of us, in fact, have even used spins to punch down through an undercast when leaving higher ground (such as sheep camps), if we knew the cloud bottoms were high enough to permit it.

    In aerobatic training, spins were stopped and the following dive, however short, was performed with the airpalne pointed straight down, rather than at the angle usually encountered during the spin and its recovery.

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    I'm told that flight instruction today includes "approaches to stalls" rather than full stalls. If so, I think that's a BIG mistake!

    I believe that both full stalls (from all flight attitudes!) and full spins - - - in both directions, since it's usually harder to stop one to the left than to the right) - - - should absolutely be taught to student pilots. Would you ever drive a car if you didn't have a pretty good idea what would happen if you had to slam on the brakes? Not me!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 1 View Post
    I'm told that flight instruction today includes "approaches to stalls" rather than full stalls. If so, I think that's a BIG mistake!

    I believe that both full stalls (from all flight attitudes!) and full spins - - - in both directions, since it's usually harder to stop one to the left than to the right) - - - should absolutely be taught to student pilots. Would you ever drive a car if you didn't have a pretty good idea what would happen if you had to slam on the brakes? Not me!
    I learned in 2006 and was always required to demonstrate full stall's. But I had a fearless 30,000 hour CFI.[all light plane AK time,not a retired ATP]

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim in anchorage View Post
    I learned in 2006 and was always required to demonstrate full stall's. But I had a fearless 30,000 hour CFI.[all light plane AK time,not a retired ATP]

    Was that persons Initials M. O.

  7. #7
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    Default Still do full stalls

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 1 View Post
    I'm told that flight instruction today includes "approaches to stalls" rather than full stalls. If so, I think that's a BIG mistake!

    I believe that both full stalls (from all flight attitudes!) and full spins - - - in both directions, since it's usually harder to stop one to the left than to the right) - - - should absolutely be taught to student pilots. Would you ever drive a car if you didn't have a pretty good idea what would happen if you had to slam on the brakes? Not me!
    I am a student pilot (about 30 hrs in) and I have had to perform full stalls with power on and off as well as turning and straight. Not sure if this is required but it is what my instructor has me do. As far as spins, I have only been taught the recovery procedures in ground school.

  8. #8
    Member arizonaguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 1 View Post
    I'm told that flight instruction today includes "approaches to stalls" rather than full stalls. If so, I think that's a BIG mistake!

    I believe that both full stalls (from all flight attitudes!) and full spins - - - in both directions, since it's usually harder to stop one to the left than to the right) - - - should absolutely be taught to student pilots. Would you ever drive a car if you didn't have a pretty good idea what would happen if you had to slam on the brakes? Not me!
    EXACTLY my feelings! The tough part is finding a school/instructor these days that include it enough that it becomes "second nature" reflex.

  9. #9
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    I was taught basic spin recovery as a student pilot. (one rotation) My CFI probably insisted on it since I was flying my own Super Cub as a student.
    He also had me doing hammer-head stalls. yee-haw...

    20 years later, I had very intensive spin training during my CFI training. You can't become a CFI without being spin qualified. At least back then you could not.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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  10. #10
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    Thumbs up fun

    I saw one spin during my primary training. No expalnation no practice, just a scared instructor. I later pursued spins and training there of with other instructors and planes and found it to be fun and very controlable ,.....if you do it by the book in a plane qualified to do so. I also got spin training during my CFI training.

  11. #11
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    Default Copied over from other thread...good story.

    I brought this story over from the previous thread...as it illustrates the exact problem (brain FREEZE from lack of "hands on" experience). Imagine if this student was flying SOLO and got into some wake turbulance, or whatever.

    GOOD story illustrating why ALL PILOTS should get familiar with some Spin Training/Aerobatics (recovery from non-standard attitudes).
    3 months after I became a CFI one of my first 10 students put my plane into a spin with him locked up on the controls.

    I had an over-powered plane and we were doing power-on stalls. This guy would not let the plane break into a stall. So we flew along for miles with the stall horn blaring as we hung on the prop. All the while with me trying to talk the guy into a half inch more back pressure on the yoke.

    So I reached over to show him what I wanted and he yelled "NO!!!" as he slammed the yoke over to the left.
    We went right on over and I told him to use full right rudder. Well he used his right foot alright, but he picked it up and slammed it down on the left pedal and then he locked up as we went into a high rotation spin.

    I yelled at him to let go and he refused to acknowelege anything. So I grabbed his right leg through his jeans and tried to pry his leg up, but I just ripped the knee out of his jeans. By then we had gone from 8,000 ft to a LOT lower. So I nailed him in the ribs a couple times until he let go.
    The resulting pull out was right at VNE.
    GREAT example.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Was that persons Initials M. O.
    No. I am probably spelling the name wrong[I can't make out his signature in my logbook] Dennis Safranick at take flight. R.I.P by the way for those who knew him. He used to put me into insane unusual attitudes while I was wearing a hood, spins the lest of them.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim in anchorage View Post
    Dennis Safranick at take flight. R.I.P
    RIP.

    He used to put me into insane unusual attitudes while I was wearing a hood, spins the lest of them.
    THAT'S what I'M talking about!

    Where are those kind of Instructors NOW? Probably saved more lives than we will ever know.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by arizonaguide View Post
    RIP.


    THAT'S what I'M talking about!

    Where are those kind of Instructors NOW? Probably saved more lives than we will ever know.
    I don't know if they exist. Dennis went to Iliamna air before I finished, so to get my private ck. ride endorsement I had to get a new CFI. This gal was TERRIFIED of stall's, never mind spin's. I was lucky to get my training from a real pilot.
    The problem with most CFI's is they are 251 hour wonder's just building time so they can move on. Dennis was not actually a instructor at take flight, he was head of 135 op's. He took me in as a student only because we had a mutual friend.

  15. #15
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    Default Rookie mistakes...

    Yup, you were lucky Jim.
    Most of my hours were out at EDF Aero club...pretty good group of folks.
    Then, 50some hours in, the divorce killed the training plan...now 10years later, thinking about it again.

    I remember a funny thing happened on my first X/C Solo to Kenai and back.
    I climbed out of EDF to 5000' because I wanted to get good and high before crossing back across ANC.
    So, I climb to 5K over Knik arm/toward BigLake, and then turn toward Fire Island. A 737 approaches UNDER me (from the North) to land at ANC, which was cool (as you don't see that in a 152 very often).

    So, I'm (theoretically) above the ANC traffic, and almost directly over Fire Island heading south. I'm awstruck because I had never really gotten a good look at the city from 5000'.

    So, I'm plugging along in an EDF Aero Club 152, approaching Fire Island at 5000', and an MD-80 climbs out (looks like) directly in front of me maybe two miles, but LOOKED closer! (they are AWSOME with their super-steep climbout). Well, being the "safe student" pilot I was...I request a 360deg turn (over Fire island) for spacing on the possible wake turbulance I thought I may be flying into...and ANC approves.

    Now I'm sitting (at 5K) doing a slow 360 over fire island. (loving it! and feeling REALLY important!).
    Then I shoot across Turnagain Arm and turn south toward Kenai. I find the Kenai "beacon" (correct terminology?) and fly it directly toward Kenai Airport. Now, realize I'm flying at 5000 and heading straight at Kenai Airport...at 10 miles out I request a strait in approach. They approve, and I wonder who they thought I was.

    Because when I went in to get my Logbook signed for the X/C they looked at me funny, and said they thought I was a commuter. (LOL!).

    Then, being the good "safe student" that I was, I pulled over to the Gas Pumps and topped off the tanks...(nothing more useless than the GAS you left behind, right?).

    The trip back was Beautiful, and uneventfull...except for that ALWAYS BUMPY (white nuckle for me) crossing of Turnagain back at Potter's Marsh area. I hugged the mountains East of ANC and worked my way back around to EDF.

    When I landed, I got my butt chewed for putting in gas at Kenai, since the Aero Club didn't like to have UNKNOWN (non-aeroclub) avgas into their aircraft without prior approval!

    Rookie mistakes.

  16. #16
    Member Toddler's Avatar
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    Default Lots o stalls

    As part of my Private Pilot I only did approach to stalls. The nose would drop but the aircraft was not fully stalled.

    Later as a Student Naval Aviator in P-Cola we did full spins (tons of fun). We also had skidded turn (approach turn) stalls and had cross control departures demonstrated to us in the aircraft.

    Later as a flight instructor (navy) we had to be proficient in all of the stalls listed above. Also, if you were an aerobatics instructor (and I was) you had to have INVERTED spin training.

    The closest I came to getting killed was when I (through lack of attention) let a student put me into a cross control departure as we were descending for the landing pattern. The aircraft snapped over violently (still recall hearing the students helmit smashing against the canopy). I got on the controls before we were fully inverted and executed the recovery procedures - I had to wait for the aircraft to develop enough speed for the flight controls to take effect. There I am 2200 with a windscreen full of nothing but trees and rocks WAITING! We pulled out at 800 and plowed right through the landing pattern. Needless to say it was a very quiet ride home. We both learned a very valuable lesson, the student later went on the fly P-3s.

    It is my opinion here in Alaska more people are killed by their lack of understanding of aerodynamics and what your airplane will do when she stalls. She will talk to you long before she bites you. Just my nickel

    Drew
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by arizonaguide View Post
    I find the Kenai "beacon" (correct terminology?)
    Rookie mistakes.
    VOR is what you mean. I cheated and used a hand held Garman on all my cross country's.
    I was drilled over and over with VOR navigation, but really when will I ever use it? I feel like I was forced to learn a obsolete navigation system[at my expense]

  18. #18
    Member arizonaguide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim in anchorage View Post
    VOR is what you mean. I cheated and used a hand held Garman on all my cross country's.
    I was drilled over and over with VOR navigation, but really when will I ever use it? I feel like I was forced to learn a obsolete navigation system[at my expense]
    Thank you Jim. On the couple X/C's that I did (*including that one) I also had a garmin handheld GPS with me (pretty cool at THAT time!), and even though I wasn't really using it (Clear beautiful day, and flying the VOR), it was NICE to have that backup to watch sitting on the seat next to me. I know it doesn't sound like much excitement to the folks here, but it may have been one of the proudest times in my life. I can remember it like it was YESTERDAY! But, that also got me thinking about my lack of REAL "hands on" training if I did get myself into trouble.

  19. #19
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    I was coming back from a Medallion Foundation meeting in Los Anchorage late one night when I hit big snow flakes on the south side of Turnagain Arm.
    I was flying along using my GPS direct to Homer , when it died...

    That particular plane had a working VOR, so I just tuned in Kenai and rode the beam until I was near enough to the coast to catch the beam to the Homer VOR.
    That VOR stuff has been working just fine for longer than most pilots have been alive.

    It later turned out that the GPS had blown a power line fuse.
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  20. #20
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    Yup, it sure makes sense to have backup navigation capability.
    I wonder how many people can still celestially navigate, for example.

    In fact FP, you also bring up a point in that the OLD GPS I had (I brought it on the couple cross countrys I did) was not any kind of a "moving map" display, but only gave position in coordinates. Is everyone spoiled on moving map type displays now? Boy, a lot sure changes in 10years. It will be like COMPLETELY starting OVER!

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