Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Wolf Sterilization??

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default Wolf Sterilization??

    Does anyone have any first hand experience with this?? It is something the Yukon might do at some point.
    I have been trying to find more information on this and all the Bios I talk to tell me to look at the fortymile caribou herd recovery program. They keep citing that sterilization program as the poster child of this control method.
    The problem I have is this.... in the fortymile wolf sterilization program they REMOVED 140 wolves??? Not sure where they moved them but it doesnt matter they took those 140 wolves out of the game. So how can they say the sterilization worked?? Sure the wolves that were sterilized held their territory but only because there was no wolves to challenge them. One bio did tell me in his opinion if they dont remove the other wolves (either by shooting them or relocating) they would kill the sterilized wolves the first year.
    For some reason we keep hearing how great this program is... am I missing something??

  2. #2
    Member AKHunterNP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    North Pole
    Posts
    902

    Default

    Here's some info I found. Probably not the best source but....

    http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/news/A...events_816.htm
    "...arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe...Horrid mischief would ensue were the good deprived of the use of them." -Thomas Paine

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    North Pole
    Posts
    413

    Default

    It was tried back during the 90s in the 40 mile area. Very expensive and poor results. When the Alpha pair did not produce others in the pack did.
    Gun Control means hitting your target.
    "Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley
    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"

  4. #4
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default

    Well, I quoted from the Farnell report, and explained how wolf sterilization programs work. It requires the removal by lethal or non-lethal means of pack members, and sterilizing the alpha male/female.

    That particular Fortymile program, as I've said before, also had a privately funded program for trappers, couple of guys I know participated in it, $400 for every wolf hide. And trappers caught plenty of wolves during that time. The problem was when they'd catch one of the collared sterilized wolves.

    I also know the vets who participated and did the surgeries. Clint out of Delta was one of them.

    As I said before, Dave, why they can say sterilization is an effective method is because it showed that it had longer lasting results than just doing control alone, because alpha males and females held their pack territories and the sterilization increased their life expectancy.

    Roggie, good to see you on, hope things are well in Squarebanks, -25 here this morning,

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default thanks

    Good info here for future thoughts concerning predator control. I think the problem we will have is the "removal" of the other wolves... dont think any other jurisdiction will want them in a live relocation, and I dont think they will ever agree to lethal removal here. And without the removal of the others sterilization wont work.

  6. #6
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks, Ak.
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Well Bushrat, I'm gonna call BS here. The Caribou Calf Protection program occured for only 2 years. It took out over 400wolves (I'm probably low on that number) and then ended. The private money dried up. It was only later that good ol Tony Knowles allowed the sterilization program.
    Wolves were captured and moved to the Kenai (where they picked up the Kenai Lice) and Alphas (how do you know a wolf is an Alpha?) were sterilized. The wolves that were moved often returned, probably to form their own pack and breed. And of course, the ones that returned brought the lice with them.............thank you Tony!!
    There was no overlap of private trappers collecting the 400 bucks and the state run sterilization. Whatever the private trappers caught was BEFORE the sterilization program.
    The state touted all the great success of the sterilizing.................without giving ANY credit to the high number of wolves the privately funded program took out first!
    Mark...........of course a state payed bio published a positive report...............but it's bogus. The real accomplishment was the DEATH............let me say that again..........DEATH of a serious percentage of the wolves in that area!!
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default Thanks

    MT thanks for that.... where were you?? Ive been waiting since I first posted this for someone to ask the "how do you know its an Alpha" question.... you are spot on... they have no clue what wolf is the Alpha male/female, and of course paid Bios are going to give high marks to their work, that has been my point all along.
    They can cut it anyway they want, what worked was removing a bunch of wolves dead or alive. If they dont keep up "manageing" the wolves the fortymile herd will once again decline its just that simple and those that dont believe that are just kidding themselves.
    Next time you talk with a Bio. push them to answer the question about identifying Alpha wolves, not one that Ive ever talked to wants to admit it but they will tell you if pressed its impossible for them to know the Alphas. And that answers the question about sterilization.... it is bogus. They can make it seem like it works only if they remove the other wolves, then in essence they are doing nothing but predator control..... smoke and mirrors.... guess some like the sound of "sterilization" rather than "lethal control"

  8. #8
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default Disappointed

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254
    I have been trying to find more information on this and all the Bios I talk to tell me to look at the fortymile caribou herd recovery program. They keep citing that sterilization program as the poster child of this control method.
    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254
    Ive been waiting since I first posted this for someone to ask the "how do you know its an Alpha" question.... you are spot on... they have no clue what wolf is the Alpha male/female, and of course paid Bios are going to give high marks to their work, that has been my point all along.
    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254
    And that answers the question about sterilization.... it is bogus. They can make it seem like it works only if they remove the other wolves, then in essence they are doing nothing but predator control..... smoke and mirrors.... guess some like the sound of "sterilization" rather than "lethal control"

    Seems like your mind was made up from the beginning, Dave. I learned a good lesson though from this thread.

    And Mike (martentrapper), really not sure where you're getting your info, but it's not correct.
    Cheers,

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default thoughts

    Mark on sterilization itself yes I have known for a long time how it is done and what happens afterward.
    As far as the Fortymile herd goes, no I didnt know all the details of that recovery program and still dont.
    The Yukon needs wolf control in some areas, everyone knows it and sterilization will probably be something the Bios will try to sell to our politicians at some point (without lethal control) I wanted to see how many people really understood sterilization and how it works, most think they just castrate some males and presto no more wolves!!
    That is not how it works..... Like I stated before they do NOT know the Alpha males/females from any other wolf and it wouldnt really matter if they did if the rest of the pack was left in place.
    In the reports Ive read on the 40 mile case they said they removed 140 wolves, MT says the number was much higher. The point is they removed a lot of wolves.
    So now you read some of the reports.... they make it sound like the STERILIZATION was a smashing success! With wolves living longer than ever before and holding territory's well past the time they ever should have!! All of this is due to the sterilization!! Give me a break its preposterous.
    The sterilized wolves were the only ones left! so of course they lived longer.... less chance of being killed by other wolves an ungulate population on the rise so food was no longer scarce, life was good for those wolves! Then take into account that all other wolves were removed so of course it could take some time for others to move back in but they will and when they do the sterilized wolves will last as long as it takes the new wolves to find them.
    Mark I have talked to our wolf Bio at length many times and he has told me he has seen this time and again without fail.... if a "pair" of wolves are in an area and pack comes through, even a small pack that pack will hunt the pair down and kill them every single time. I guess its their way of ensuring the packs survival. He also said if its a lone wolf the pack might let it go or even let it join up with them, but pairs are killed every time.
    So in the end all this tells us is that the "REMOVAL" worked. Without removal sterilization is a useless waste of money.
    I raised and raced sled dogs for many years and I know how the "pack hierarchy" works and anyone that believes they can just go out and sterilize some wolves and not kill a bunch or relocate them and have a control program that works has their head in the sand. And that is how "sterilization" is spun to the masses.

  10. #10
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default

    Like I said, Dave, seems pretty clear your mind was already made up. And it isn't open at all to any other view regarding the efficacy of sterilization as part of a wolf control/removal program.

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default removal

    Mark I noticed you used the term " Sterilization as PART of a control/removal program"
    If you can show me how "sterilization" works without removal Im all ears. Problem is you cant and you know it. I have come to my conclusion through reading many reports, talking to Bios that have been involved at length about the process and from my own observations.
    I have been to a number of meetings/seminars lately where they try to sell the idea of sterilization INSTEAD of removal lethal or not. That is not going to work and we know it.

  12. #12
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default The English Language - Reading Comprehension Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukon 254
    If you can show me how "sterilization" works without removal Im all ears. Problem is you cant and you know it.
    Holy kiniption fit, Dave, seems like you want to get in some absurd internet pissing match over something I never implied or said.

    Re-read my first post on this thread.

  13. #13
    Member homerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    homer, alaska
    Posts
    3,922

    Default

    that's not a pissing match, mark... it's raining.
    HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    besides, we gotta feel a little sorry for our poor canadian neighbors...
    they coulda had american technology, british culture and french food,
    but they ended up with french technology, british food and american culture.

    too bad...
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org/

  14. #14
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks, Ak.
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Here is info from a respected trapper in Fbks who was/is involved with Ak. Trappers Assoc.

    "
    CCPP ran in seasons 97-98 and 98-99. First year's take was about 225 wolves bought (at $400 each.)

    Next year was about another 100 as I recall. I vaguely remember that the total was 328 wolves taken in CCPP.

    ADFG (that was during the Knowles years) then went ahead with the wolf sterilization program. When the FMC herd started recovering, they claimed that it was because the sterilization had been so sucessful! No mention for several years of the fact that trappers had removed over 300 wolves to start with.

    That "spin" was EXACTLY WHY ATA OPPOSED the wolf sterilization program. We knew that the Knowles appointees would claim that THEIR program was effective (when anyone with a brain would realize that it never would have worked without removing a bunch of wolves up front.)

    Talk about results for the dollar? ADFG spent something $1.1 million dollars on the planning process and then further, Planned Parenthood and Frequent Flyer Miles for wolves. Trappers removed 328 wolves for a grand total of $0 to state government."

    I'm hoping to get more info from Dean Wilson, who was one of the furbuyers paying for the wolves.
    Bushrat, what have I said that is wrong? I'm listening.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  15. #15
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default

    Mike, not sure who the source of those quotes is, and I could be wrong, but my recollection is that ATA and the others got the $400 per wolf thing going the winter of '95-96, then the next winter too, 96-97. And I think a buddy of mine still got paid the next winter too for some wolves.

    Relocation and sterilization started late in '97. Ran til winter of 2000-2001.

    At any rate, just not sure I follow what your point is. Like with this:
    The private money dried up. It was only later that good ol Tony Knowles allowed the sterilization program.
    No, the sterilization/relocation was already set to go, according to the new 1995 plan the Fortymile "Team" came up with under Knowles. And the subsequent passage so it could begin in '97.

    And the way I recall things, bunch of trappers felt if they could get some kind of private incentive program going, under the radar for the most part, and get it going before and during the Dept efforts, that they could take a helluva lot of those wolves themselves and "screw this whole relocation thing."

    At the time, the Dept out of Tok was working with people on this non-official trapping plan.

    And yes, the plan was to do the trapping first for a couple of years before the relocations and sterilizations began. Have even read that in a couple of the reports.

    But there was an overlap of the program and the trapping incentive. F&G definitely started relocating and sterilizing in November of '97. My recollection is actually a year before your buddy's when the incentive program started. Could be too some of the local trappers in Tok and Chicken got paid beyond when others were told the program was out of money.

    Everyone knew the sterilization thing was coming. I know why ATA opposed it (I think), like many of us they felt the whole relocation aspect was ridiculous. But the notion they opposed it because of fears that the Knowles administration would say it was effective is a strange one in light of the fact that ATA was one of the forces behind getting the wolf incentive program up and going strong right before the official program. I mean, if you kill 300 wolves right before a program like that, isn't that likely going to favor the thing being effective?

    Biologists following the program up were surprised by the results of the whole thing. It's in numerous reports, some of which I've quoted from before. Useless to continue to give out though, cuz all I get is this type of reply:
    of course a state payed bio published a positive report...............but it's bogus.


  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default Fit

    Mark no pissing matches for me! "You said my mind wasnt open to any other veiw regarding the efficacy of sterilization as part of a control/removal program"

    Correct me if Im wrong but I take that statement to mean you do???

    I do not... it was the removal of the wolves that started to bring the caribou numbers back. The sterilization did what????

    I dont want all wolves killed, what bothers me is for some reason people have a hard time admitting that lethal control works. ( Im not implying you personal Mark as I understand in some cases you do agree with lethal control)
    we spend so much money on study after study then Govt programs that are wasteful and in some cases (like air/personal time for sterilization) a total waste of money that it gets old.

    HOMERDAVE I see Alaskans use a lot of Bombardier equipment huh! Pretty good french Canadian technology EH!! I wouldnt go to far down that trail, our wage scale is what, double yours?? unemployment rates??? besides Im as American as you are bud, even did my time in the sand for ole uncle sam.. you???

  17. #17
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks, Ak.
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    The main point, Mark (probably Yukon's point too) is that non lethal control is not a practical method.
    Here is a quote out of F&G's current booklet "Understanding Predator management in Alaska "Non-lethal methods such as surgical sterilization can reduce predation, but are usually prohibitively expensive or logistically impractical, except in relatively small areas".
    This booklet is available at F&G offices and has a lot of information on ongoing
    predator control programs for anyone interested.

    Yukon...............your wages are double cuz you got twice the socialism and twice the taxes! But Obama is catching us up.
    Thanks for your time in the sand.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Yukon Canada
    Posts
    1,289

    Default tax

    MT I was being a smart a@# our wages are not any better than yours. our taxes are though! You guys are gonna love our medical system though! Long waits, few doctors, no specialists and even though the Fraser institute says it costs every Canadian tax payer aprox. 9k a year most Canadians will tell you its free!! Whats not to like about that! Sorry this went off topic.

  19. #19

    Thumbs up

    I want to hear more about the Death Squads!!!


    No silly, not the ones in the hospital board rooms, the ones in the helicopters that go out and kill wolves. Shoot I even like hearing that some get themselves nuetered instead. That has got to be punishing for them. I can just picture an Alpha male with a complex and poor self esteem.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks
    Posts
    439

    Default

    I remember saying at the time of the sterilization program that it will go against the laws of nature and allow lesser animals to breed rather than the true Alpha members. After a few years of dumbing down the pack they will just be glorified coyotes.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •