45 colt and 454 casul loads
i have a ruger alaskan 454 revolver and a newly aquired puma m-92 454 rifle and would like some info on loads that would work for both. right now i have a great 45 colt plinking load with a 250 grain swc and 7 grains unique for my pistol. i have been reading a lot what the puma 92 can handle, but i can't find all of the exact specs for starting loads to max loads for shooting the 45colt and 454 in a rifle application. i have unique and w296 powder, large pistol and large pistol magnum primers. i have a lot of 45 colt brass and saw what it can be loaded up to and some 454 brass for hunting rounds. what would be a good load for hunting deer and blackbear with like a 310 grain bullet and another load for a 250-260 grain bullet that wouldn't have crazy recoil. any bullet recomendations would also be great. i was also told that the plain base bullets didn't shoot that well out of the rifle? i know this is asking a lot but i would apreciate any help you have. thanks
TTThe m92 will stand anything the pistol will and more. I have the m92Puma but don't have a pistol so I don't have working loads for the hand gun. I shoot 2 cast bullets in the rifle. a 265gr plain base from wcww and the lee 300gr (actually 317gr from wcww) For the 265gr I use 27.3gr 2400 with standard primer for 1800fps. My wife likes this one. recoil is very manageable. My hunting load is the Lee cast with gas check 317gr using water cooled wheel weights fwfl lube a cci mag primer and 30grs Lil gun for 1968fps. The plain base shoots good with a wet patch clean up, no real scrubbing and the gas check Lee shows no leading either. I have some loaded with Win 296 but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet. With w296 you should run out of room for powder before you show pressure signs. Any book load for the 454 or 45Colt hangun will work in the rifle and gain 200/300 fps. I size my cast bullets at .452 and I'm not having a problem with leading.I'm only using 454cases in my rifle as cleaning the chamber is difficult without removing the bolt and using 45Colt cases can cause a build up making chambering the 454 cases difficult if not cleaned properly. Both bullets feed fine and I have chambered some 45Colt rounds and they feed fine also. The 454 cases will take small rifle primers. Unique will work with either std or mag primers but w296 should be used only with mag primers.
The beauty of it is you use the same ammo in both your rifle and side arm. Load them the same and the extra barrel of the rifle will give you 2-300fps more.
Load heavy flat nosed hard cast as big as the puma will feed which is likely something like this but someone that has a Puma will know better what they can feed. The Ruger will eat any boolit that will fit so the Puma is the week link for boolit size.
Keep your Unique for plinking like you are now. Use the W296/H110 for hunting loads (try some LilGun when you run out) and I like mag primers with this hard to light powder. I get my data from HODGDON and just use handgun data in both guns. 454 uses small rifle primers not pistol primers, I love to cut down my 460 brass to 454 so I can use large rifle primers . . . pistol primers are not recommended for 454/460 pressures.
Load-um-up and enjoy!
Congrats on a great pair! I too have a 454 Puma. I just got done refinishing the stock and properly fitting the recoil pad. Anyway. The puma will handle full bore 454 loads down to 45 Colt plinkers. The main thing is if they cycle or not. OAL and bullet profile are key. Cast Performance 335gr and 360gr WILL cycle in 454 brass in my gun but the OAL has to be no more than 1.750-1.755. But, then the case mouth is just a skosh to long for the crimp groove. I have to trim the case to 1.365. But, that is actually Freedom Arms spec that I saw somewhere so I'm not worried about excessive pressure from too short of brass.
I have a WFN 355gr boolit from a custom LBT mould but the metplat is much larger than the CP 335's or 360's. It will not cycle in my gun in the 454 brass. 45 Colt brass is no prob.
I have posted a few threads here with loads and targets from my Puma. My 335ers are pretty hot. 1950fps and very accurate. But I'm gonna drop the load down some.
I just picked up a Lyman 325gr mould with double crimp grooves. I'll be casting some of these and should be able to seat them in the first groove and be good to go.
Ya, use Unique for plinkin and 296/h110 for full house loads. 45 Colt 255gr 8-9gr Unique. 454 255gr 10-11gr Unique.
Use Hodgon Ruger Only Load data for 45 Colt and Hodgon or CP load data for teh 454's and work your way up. DON'T go below ANY minimum loads with h110/296, use mag primers and a good tight crimp.
thanks for all of the info. i see that i can only use small rifle primers for the 454, or is only when i'm loading the higher pressure loads? also i read on some pretty smoking loads with the 45 colt and from snyd's reply might solve the oal problem with feeding. can i get away with large pistol mag primers with those loads?
The 45Colt cases take Lg pistol primers. The 454 cases can use only small primers. Unique lights easily and you can use any primer that fits the case. H110/W296 should only be used with magnum primers. Use lg pistol mag primers in the 45Colt cases with 296 and small RIFLE primers for the 296 loads in the 454 brass. The high pressure loads with 296 may blow small pistol primers, even the small mag primers. And, as has been stated, don't go below starting loads with W296.
thanks again for all of the advice!
Small rifle Magnums with H110/296 in the 454. Small rifles work fine with Unique.
Large Pistol Magnums with H110/296 in the 45 Colt. Large Pistols work fine with Unique.
Here is some load work Murphy did with the 454 and posted here sometime back. He does not like H110/W296 at all. Not even for fertilizer I think he said I've got a few lbs so I'll shoot it up and then probably try some other powders as he lists here:
All of this is in Starline brass which has small primer pockets for small rifle magnum primers. Though small primer pockets are all the same, load data for this one requires the hotter spark of the magnum rifle and also needs the stronger cup of the rifle primer.
I have used the Remington #7 1/2 primer and CCI-450 magnum small rifle primer, as noted.
I don't use H-110 or W-296 powder because I don't like the performance of ball powders over temperature range and also dislike its lack of versatility.
I use H4227 and Vihta N-110 and both will work from moderate to heavy loads. They are very clean burning and give very low standard deviation in tight guns.
I am a strong proponent of heavy for caliber cast bullets in any big bore hand gun and am satisfied that they are the best way to go for any hunting or bear protection application, especially with shorter barrels in packable revolvers.
Here is a sample of data for the Beartooth 340 grain LFNGC bullet. This bullet is sized to .452" and actually weighs 345 grains. It is extremely accurate in my FA guns and I have shot it into 3" at 100 yards with my 2X Leupold.
This is chronographed with my Oehler model 35-P, from my 5 1/2" barrel M83 with the average of five shots at 15' feet from the muzzle.
H4227 and Rem #7 1/2 primer.
Charge, Velocity, Ex. Spread, S.D.
24.0 1237 32 15
25.0 1288 28 14
26.0 1318 31 15
27.0 1378 35 12
28.0 1414 15 08
H4227 and CCI-450 primer.
26.0 1343 23 12
27.0 1398 21 09
28.0 1445 18 08
N-110 and Rem. #7 1/2 primer.
25.0 1443 24 08
26.0 1487 37 14
N-110 and CCI-450 primer.
25.0 1452 33 12
26.0 1491 28 10
These bullets were alos sized .452".
With the Cast Performance 335 grain WLNGC bullet.
N-110 powder and CCI-450 primer.
26.0 1495 21 05
27.0 1537 25 08
With the Beartooth 355 grain WLNGC.
H4227 powder and CCI-450 primers.
22.0 1147 39 21
24.0 1237 35 19 (2 gr. increase)
25.0 1268 27 17
26.0 1316 28 13
27.0 1362 24 11
Both H4227 and Vihta N-110 can be loaded down to moderate levels. The top load with all bullets and powders were a full case. The 340 LFN has a longer base section and both H4227 and N110 fill the case and is slightly compressed. That is a good thing. I use a Redding Profile crimp die and crimp into a crimp groove. These require a very heavy crimp. Recoil is...how shall I say this....stimulating and the bullets will walk if we don't hold 'em. This is also one of the reasons why we get such low velocity spreads on this one, a heavy bullet and a tight crimp on cases of uniform length. These powders are much better than the ball powders even though the H-110/W-296 may get higher velocity in some guns, velocity variation will be higher. Enjoy your new toy.
Relative to the 454 - if you want to play around a little try the 460 S&W case - just trim it down and use large pistol primers. I use the WLP's. I've been pleased with the results I've obtained. These groups were shot at 25 yards rested - I have a hard time trying to keep all 5 touching.
Here's a couple more pictures of groups with the 460 brass trimmed down for the 454 Casull. In a couple weeks hopefully I'll be able to wade out to the 50 and 100 yard line and see what the brass can do - I'll be using a scope at those ranges set on 8X. I just think a large pistol primer works better than a small rifle primer in a case the size of the 454.
JoeJ. Do you know what the thickness is of the 460 brass compared to the 454 of the same manufacturer? I was wondering if cutdown 460 brass trimmed to the same length a 454 brass has the same case capacity or if the 460 brass would have less capacity. Potentially causing pressure issues with max or near max loads. Any idea?
I trim the SW 460 Starline case to 1.385, it weights right at 132.1 grains empty. When filled completely with water it weighs 176.1 grains, so the capacity is 44 grains of water. The Starline 454 case weighs right at 128 grains empty and 173 grains filled with water, so the capacity is 45 grains. I've shot some pretty nasty loads with the trimmed 460 brass and the primer pockets stayed tight, no pressure signs, no problems using pistol primers in the deeper pockets,etc. I tried fed 150 primers and the accuracy wasn't quite there and there was more unburned powder. I haven't tried CCI350's yet but they should work fine with a little higher peak pressure. The CCI BR4 rifle primer didn't show me much but the inside of the case was real clean.
Wow, cool, thanks Joe. That's exactly what I was wondering. So, correct me if I'm wrong. You or anyone else. But, don't we have to take that in to consideration when working up loads? 1 grain less case capacity? Will 1 grain less case capacity(fluid) make a difference in case pressure with say the same boolit and powder charge? LPM and SRM primers and case capacity being different?
Not enough to worry about here. The difference in some cases with the 45-70 I believe is 4 or 5 grains and some are running those cases full throttle. One thing with the 1680 powder - that's the only powder I've found that will throw a flame out of my 6" BFR - shoots well, but will light up the evening.
I load them just like ant 454 brass, hot, and have no trouble at all. 454 and 460 are both rated to 65Kpsi and if you look at the loads you won't (or I havenít) find one over 56Kpsi because they start sticking brass about there even though it's below rated pressures. To my mind thatís great because it gives us an indicator of pressure before we even get to the rated pressure, a sort of yellow light telling us the red is on the way. So as long as you donít get very hard extraction you should be good to go pressure wise.
Originally Posted by Snyd