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Thread: Need your opinion. 10mm to 50GI or 45 to 460 Rowland. (Black bear and ******* gun)

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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Default Need your opinion. 10mm to 50GI or 45 to 460 Rowland. (Black bear and ******* gun)

    I have a S&W 500 and Marlin guide gun I take on all my Alaska float trips. Love them, but they are heavy. My wife and I will be on Prince of Wales hiking up and down several miles of river each day for a week in early May. For this trip, I would prefer not lugging the 500 S&W and this also gives me a reason to buy a new gun


    First of all, if you think a stock Glock G20 10 mm is enough for black bear protection, say so. I would be interested to hear from you for sure. To be honest, I have a habit of overthinking things and this could be such an example. If you think a 10 mm is not up to the task, keep reading...


    Guncrafter Industries makes a 50 GI conversion for the Glock G20 (10mm).

    http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/sneakpreview.shtml


    And for most models of 45's I can get a 460 Rowland conversion from Clark Custom Guns.

    http://clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm


    In either case, I would be buying a new gun. These two options juice up the 10 mm/45 a good bit as you could imagine. And no need for just saying "take the 500". I know, you are right if you said so. I want a new gun, I think 99% of you reading this will understand. Also, we will be making many more trips to SE Alaska after what I have learned in recent months so a black bear gun is not hard to justify. This gun would also be great for hiking/flyfishing in the Smoky Mountains back home in North Carolina. Lots of black bears there too. Like I said, a good black bear and ******* gun, that is easier to carry when hiking is the plan. Any thoughts?



    -Dan
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    Member chriso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danattherock View Post
    I have a S&W 500 and Marlin guide gun I take on all my Alaska float trips. Love them, but they are heavy. My wife and I will be on Prince of Wales hiking up and down several miles of river each day for a week in early May. For this trip, I would prefer not lugging the 500 S&W and this also gives me a reason to buy a new gun

    First of all, if you think a stock Glock G20 10 mm is enough for black bear protection, say so. I would be interested to hear from you for sure. To be honest, I have a habit of overthinking things and this could be such an example. If you think a 10 mm is not up to the task, keep reading...

    Guncrafter Industries makes a 50 GI conversion for the Glock G20 (10mm).

    http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/sneakpreview.shtml

    And for most models of 45's I can get a 460 Rowland conversion from Clark Custom Guns.

    http://clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

    In either case, I would be buying a new gun. These two options juice up the 10 mm/45 a good bit as you could imagine. And no need for just saying "take the 500". I know, you are right if you said so. I want a new gun, I think 99% of you reading this will understand. Also, we will be making many more trips to SE Alaska after what I have learned in recent months so a black bear gun is not hard to justify. This gun would also be great for hiking/flyfishing in the Smoky Mountains back home in North Carolina. Lots of black bears there too. Like I said, a good black bear and ******* gun, that is easier to carry when hiking is the plan. Any thoughts?

    -Dan
    Your journey sounds similar to mine Dan. I went with the larger bore rifles, shotguns, then the heavier handguns and eventually realized I didnt often have them at hand when I might have had need for them. Seems they were mostly left in the truck, in the plane, in the boat, in the pack, but rarely on my person.

    Like a lot of folks on this board, I've been here over for 4 decades of fishing and hunting and never yet had need to shoot a critter in self defense. But, if and when it comes to pass, I sure dont want to be looking for a sharp stick or rock to defend myself or my wife and kids with.

    I think its going to always come down to a compromise in which you'll wind up going for the biggest gun you can reasonably assure yourself that you will indeed make it a point to carry while doing your particularly favorite outdoor activities.

    I have the casul, owned the grizzly 50 and 45 winmags, and still own some .44's. But like I said, they weren't often on me when I found myself leading my kiddos down the trail back to the boat with our stringers in hand.

    I wound up going with the glock 20 like you're considering, it shoots reasonably well. I mostly carry my 1911 in 10mm though, I'm more comfortable with it, more accurate with it, and it carry's a bit better in my opinion. Then I found myself in love with the .460 rowland. Its so close to that .45 winmag in performance, but I'd guess its like 20% more compact in the 1911 versions? Lately I've taken to carrying it a lot more than the 10mms, but I still shoot them more for practice. I then got WWG to convert a S&W M&P 45 to 460 for me too. It is nice to have the higher capacity, but it's still bulkier than the 1911's and really, I dont think I'm going to start a full on firefight with no bear over a dead fish... I figure I'll be lucky to have time to get off a round or two with any amount of accuracy so the dirference between 8 rds or 12 isnt really all that earth shattering.

    Which brings me full circle back to my wheel guns. I do find that I carry my little scandium .357 mag quite a bit. Again, its no hand cannon by any stretch of the imagination, and only has like 5 rounds in it, but if I'm pulling a blackie (or a griz for that matter) away from my kid, I'm going to make a hole in him with it from very close range and I'll sure be glad to have it instead of looking for a rock or sharp stick.

    Rowland ammo is more expensive, both it and the 10mm are sometimes hard to find, but not impossible. If you decide to carry the larger capacity plastic guns, that XD or M&P conversions will shoot 45acp all day long for your practice ammo so thats a cost savings thing worth considering.

    The best thing about what ails you (and me!) is that theres no such thing as owning a bad gun, the worst thing can happen is you need to get another gun that might suit your needs slightly better!

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    Thumbs up holster

    Hey Dan; I don't know much about guns, so I'll leave that decision/opinion to everyone else, but,.... Have you looked at teh shoulder holsters that Diamond D sells? I looked at and them and put one on at the Wassilla guns howe a while back. WOW I was impressed, comfortable and out of the way for an easy carry. I couldn't afford the price tag they asked so walked away without one.

    I found a hip holster made by Blackhawk (cordura type) and went and got some 1 1/2 inch webbing and a couple of buckles from Nomar and made my own shoulder holster that works great. And it only cost about $25 instead of $155. It takes some fiddeling with and a little hand sewing to make it all work and sit right (modeled after the Dimond D ) but I love it. I can wear it all day and almost forget it is there because it is so comfortable.

    My .02

    Good luck

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    In general I'm not a fan of high-pressure/high performance autoloaders. I feel the big bruisers are better suited for the revolvers that can handle extra pressure without worry of the slide battering the frame to death, significant galling, or possibly bending a take-down lever. I don't consider the 10mm to be abusive or overpowered for the autoloader platform, but feel it's likely the top-end before you start having issues.

    My personal dislike of extreme-power autoloaders came to a head recently. You see, my wife likes to pick berries by herself in the mountains far away from people. I like my wife and want her to be protected. My wife doesn't like revolvers because they don't fit her hand. I don't think the 10mm is sufficient as a brown bear defensive weapon. Chaos ensued throughout the land. In order to make mamma happy I did a bunch of reading and we spent a lot of time in stores looking at guns that fit her hands as well as my requirments. Eventually we settled on an XD in 460 Rowland. I still believe the Rowland is a bit abusive and stretches the autoloader design to it's absolute maximum however, just like a race car, I don't have to run it at full-throttle all the time. After the gun is broken in and I've deemed it reliable, we can practice with 45ACP and shoot only a bit of the Rowland ammo for familiarity. It worked out great in our case as it's like getting two guns in one.

    Okay...I said all that to end with this:

    I think the 10mm is more than adequate as a black bear gun. Every bear I've seen hit with the cartridge was dead, which must mean it's effective. That being said; it rarely hurts to want more gun than required, but it always hurts to have less gun than you need. I think you'll be very happy with a .460 Rowland be it a 1911, an M&P or the XD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Nut View Post
    In general I'm not a fan of high-pressure/high performance autoloaders. I feel the big bruisers are better suited for the revolvers that can handle extra pressure without worry of the slide battering the frame to death, significant galling, or possibly bending a take-down lever. I don't consider the 10mm to be abusive or overpowered for the autoloader platform, but feel it's likely the top-end before you start having issues.

    My personal dislike of extreme-power autoloaders came to a head recently. You see, my wife likes to pick berries by herself in the mountains far away from people. I like my wife and want her to be protected. My wife doesn't like revolvers because they don't fit her hand. I don't think the 10mm is sufficient as a brown bear defensive weapon. Chaos ensued throughout the land. In order to make mamma happy I did a bunch of reading and we spent a lot of time in stores looking at guns that fit her hands as well as my requirments. Eventually we settled on an XD in 460 Rowland. I still believe the Rowland is a bit abusive and stretches the autoloader design to it's absolute maximum however, just like a race car, I don't have to run it at full-throttle all the time. After the gun is broken in and I've deemed it reliable, we can practice with 45ACP and shoot only a bit of the Rowland ammo for familiarity. It worked out great in our case as it's like getting two guns in one.

    Okay...I said all that to end with this:

    I think the 10mm is more than adequate as a black bear gun. Every bear I've seen hit with the cartridge was dead, which must mean it's effective. That being said; it rarely hurts to want more gun than required, but it always hurts to have less gun than you need. I think you'll be very happy with a .460 Rowland be it a 1911, an M&P or the XD.
    Well said and I completely agree.
    Andy
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    In country where there are only black bear I carry a 45colt or 357. I believe on POW a 10mm or 357 with 180gr bullets above 1,000fps are just fine if you shoot it well

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    I'd shy away from the "custom" or "non standard" calibers.

    Why?

    You end up forgetting to pack your ammo, or in my case the bag with the ammo was lost by the airlines and doesn't show up until days later. There was no local store to buy ammo or one even close by, but I was able to borrow some ammo until mine arrived.

    If the destination is remote, you are more likely to find ammo for the popular calibers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by upstream View Post
    I'd shy away from the "custom" or "non standard" calibers.

    Why?

    You end up forgetting to pack your ammo, or in my case the bag with the ammo was lost by the airlines and doesn't show up until days later. There was no local store to buy ammo or one even close by, but I was able to borrow some ammo until mine arrived.

    If the destination is remote, you are more likely to find ammo for the popular calibers.
    How did they lose your ammo and not your gun? I pack my handguns in the hard case then stick the ammo and case in the same checked bag. I had them (Alaska Airline) send my other bags touring around the country but they made sure the one with the gun made the right connections somehow.
    Left me armed but without sox and undershorts.
    Andy
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    How did they lose your ammo and not your gun? I pack my handguns in the hard case then stick the ammo and case in the same checked bag. I had them (Alaska Airline) send my other bags touring around the country but they made sure the one with the gun made the right connections somehow.
    Left me armed but without sox and undershorts.
    TSA, whatever their wisdom is or was at that moment, made me separate them. I obliged them, because the TSA guy doing the inspection didn't seem to be the kind of person that would respond to common sense or reason.

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    Off topic a little.....I just returned from a several flight trip to the lower 48 on AK Airlines. I packed the gun and ammo in the same case. Zero issues as usual. Got to AK Airlines' website pertaining to firearms and follow what they mandate. Then print it off and place it on top of the gun in the case so that if they open it up it is right in front of them. Good luck.

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    Member Kotton's Avatar
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    I would personaly feel safe with a 10mm with only blackies around.With my experinces with walking up on black bears that I did not know were there,they usally run,but once had one stand striaght up pop it's jaws then run off.Have finished a few off with it and works every time.Im not saying it is a good bear defense gun but carry around fishingand would feel safe if I had to use it as one.I do not like the glock, ,My double eagle never jams,has some rust after the ten years of the field,but with some cleaning never faild to fire.I do plan on getting a S&W .500 in the four inch barrel for bear while I'm not out with my .300.My friend got one last year and think it will make me feel safer when I know grizz are around.

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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Lots of great advice here and I appreciate it. As of now, I am looking at the Glock G20 10mm or a Sprinfield XD with 460 Rowland conversion. Looks like I am comparing $600 versus $1,000 more or less. So, does anyone have any ballistics data on 10mm versus 460 Rowland. Found a few references online, but as I don't roll my own, the info was only partly helpful. I am trying to decide if the extra ft/lbs (muzzle) on the 460 makes it worth $400 over that of the 10mm. Manufactured ammo is what I will be using. The only ammo I found was from Georgia Arms and they didn't have any info on their site. Just said 230 gr bonded hollow point. No fps or ft/lbs were shown. Thanks for any info guys.

    -Dan
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    I have 230 GR WFNGC Hardcast 10mm rounds "Double Tap Ammunition", box says 1120 fps but no lbs. I know it shows all the bullistics on their site.

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    230g @1120fps = 640ft-lbs

    There are lots of on line calculators for us math challenged gun nuts all you need is speed, weight, and the link below.
    http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/...s/calcnrg.html
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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, and thanks Andy for the info earlier. Ksouth, thanks for the info on the 10mm Double Tap ammo. The 200 gr hardcastt at around 1,400 fps was 750 ft/lbs. Pretty impressive. What I am trying to do now is see what the 460 Rowland does. Can't find good info on that.


    -Dan
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    You might try CorBon's website. I have never been to it but they make 10mm and 460, and they might have stats.

  18. #18

    Default 460 Rowland

    Right off the box: CorBon 230gr @ 1250 fps 798 ft/lbs
    Can't find the Georgia Arms box, but think: 230gr JHP @ 1350
    Both shoot point of aim @ 25 yards from my M&P

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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Thanks for that info. Surprising how close the 460 Rowland is to the 10mm Double Tap info above. I would have thought there would be more of a difference. Looks like 750 ft/lbs for the 10mm and 800 ft/lbs for the 460 Rowland. Then again, this is factory ammo and I am sure reloading may reveal more differences in these calibers. But I don't intend on rolling my own so this is interesting info.

    I did hear from Johnny Rowland that the 460 will be made by Buffalo Bore soon, so that is good to hear. A sign of the calibers popularity I would say. Looking pretty hard now at the Springfield XD with the 460 Rowland conversion added. If not that, the Glock G20. Trying to decide if there is enough difference in performance to justify the $400 difference in cost.

    Also, any of you guys using the XD with 460 Rowland, any particular size you need. I read "full size" on a website, but at Springfields site I see many 45's with 5" slides, then some with 4", then there are the tactical models, but for whatever reason, the slide length is not given on these models. Curious which XD one would buy if the 460 conversion was the plan. Thanks for any thoughts.

    -Dan
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    Quote Originally Posted by upstream View Post
    TSA, whatever their wisdom is or was at that moment, made me separate them. I obliged them, because the TSA guy doing the inspection didn't seem to be the kind of person that would respond to common sense or reason.
    This should help us overcome our fears of checking guns . . . NOT!
    It does show it’s not a good idea to tick off a talented Canadian.

    United Breaks Guitars
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