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Thread: 300 wsm tight bolt

  1. #1

    Default 300 wsm tight bolt

    I saw other threads on this issue and tried several of the recommendations which has got my brass fitting nicely before loading. Right now I can get very easy bolt closure with resized unloaded brass, but with the bullet seated the closing is tight. After firing the bolt is not tight. Any suggestions? The rifle is a kimber montana, no problems with factory ammo. Any help is appreciated

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    Member marshall's Avatar
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    Without seeing your finished loads or measuring them I would lean in two directions.

    First your bullet may be seated to far out meaning that your Ogive is jamming into the lands. Did you take any measurements prior to deciding on a seating depth?

    Second could be that your neck brass is to thick. After the bullet is seated the neck would expand and the fit would be to tight in the chamber. This can be fixed by neck turning. I doubt this is the problem in a production rifle but a possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    Without seeing your finished loads or measuring them I would lean in two directions.

    First your bullet may be seated to far out meaning that your Ogive is jamming into the lands. Did you take any measurements prior to deciding on a seating depth?

    Second could be that your neck brass is to thick. After the bullet is seated the neck would expand and the fit would be to tight in the chamber. This can be fixed by neck turning. I doubt this is the problem in a production rifle but a possibility.
    Hi Marshall,
    The bullets are seated back quite a bit from the lands, and I turned the necks. I'm thinking you're on the right track though, nothing else would make sense. I'll measure the neck ODs when I get home, should of thought of that yesterday. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wodje96 View Post
    Hi Marshall,
    The bullets are seated back quite a bit from the lands, and I turned the necks. I'm thinking you're on the right track though, nothing else would make sense. I'll measure the neck ODs when I get home, should of thought of that yesterday. Cheers.
    An even easier quick solution:

    Point the muzzle in a safe direction, remove your bolt and slide a loaded round in the chamber. If it goes in unrestricted with a push from your finger then the neck OD isn't your problem. That would point back to the ogive distance.

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    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Is your brass too long??? Have you tried trimming it shorter??

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    Is your brass too long??? Have you tried trimming it shorter??

    Steve
    Trimmed them to a little less (.003) than spec.

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    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    I have read that,

    If the brass is too long it can "pinch" the bullet in the case and cause very high pressures and even case or primer failure. It seems that when you cam over the bolt it is crimping the bullet. Are you sure of your measuring equipment?? Could try trimming a couple thousandths shorter and trying that.

    Have you tried a different brand of bullet or brass?

    Stewe

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    Are your primers seated flush or below?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    I have read that,

    If the brass is too long it can "pinch" the bullet in the case and cause very high pressures and even case or primer failure. It seems that when you cam over the bolt it is crimping the bullet. Are you sure of your measuring equipment?? Could try trimming a couple thousandths shorter and trying that.

    Have you tried a different brand of bullet or brass?

    Stewe
    It's a very good caliper (Starret), what would I see if I were crimping the bullet? I have tried different bullets with not much noticable difference, I didn't try other brass though. I've been using winchester brass (I wasn't very impressed with it BTW) I do have some federal nickel brass that I could try.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    Are your primers seated flush or below?
    I did notice some marking on the primers, could a high primer cause this? They look flush, but I didn't take much notice.

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    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wodje96 View Post
    I did notice some marking on the primers, could a high primer cause this? They look flush, but I didn't take much notice.
    Yes, high primers may easily cause stiff bolt closure. It could be a case of a rifle that is well chambered, brass that is within spec but with shallow primer pockets and primers that have cups within spec but at the edge of maximum cup depth. All of these things together could cause your issue. A quick check would be seat a bullet in an unprimed resized case and check for fit (you can pull the bullet after the test). If the action closes smoothly you've found your problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    Yes, high primers may easily cause stiff bolt closure. It could be a case of a rifle that is well chambered, brass that is within spec but with shallow primer pockets and primers that have cups within spec but at the edge of maximum cup depth. All of these things together could cause your issue. A quick check would be seat a bullet in an unprimed resized case and check for fit (you can pull the bullet after the test). If the action closes smoothly you've found your problem.
    I bet that's it, I'll try tonight and post result. If it is the primer what can I do to the cases short of selling them for scrap, I don't think a reemer could remove enough could it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wodje96 View Post
    I bet that's it, I'll try tonight and post result. If it is the primer what can I do to the cases short of selling them for scrap, I don't think a reemer could remove enough could it?
    YOu have a couple of options. You can uniform the primer pockets which is easy and should be a sure fix. I do not recommend uniforming the pockets of hunting ammo, but if this is your problem it would be a good option rather than scrapping the brass. I use and can recommend this model: http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/...r-Pocket-Tools

    You can also try a different brand/lot of primers to see if there is sufficient difference in cup depth to remedy the problem.

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    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    One other thing to double check is that you are using the correct shell holder in your primer. I'm sure you have checked, but it would cause the primer to be incorrectly seated. Don't ask me how I know.

    Steve

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    Member marshall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    YOu have a couple of options. You can uniform the primer pockets which is easy and should be a sure fix. I do not recommend uniforming the pockets of hunting ammo, but if this is your problem it would be a good option rather than scrapping the brass. I use and can recommend this model: http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/...r-Pocket-Tools

    You can also try a different brand/lot of primers to see if there is sufficient difference in cup depth to remedy the problem.
    1Cor15:19,

    Just curious why you would not recommend uniforming hunting ammo? I put just as much care if not more in prepping hunting ammo including sealing primers for Alaska hunts, that's probably over kill. I too use that uniformer and it cut true and fast.

    As far as trying different brands of primers I have to scratch my head on that one. They are made to a spec, different brands should not be bigger just thicker or thinner skinned. That doesn't affect OD or height. As I'm sure you know primers should be slightly below flush.

    If the ogive isn't jammed into the lands and the brass chambers fine prior to seating as mentioned earlier then the extended primers seem reasonable in a rifle with a chamber set up on the tight side of spec. Hard to say for sure without taking at look.

    Either way I hope he gets it solved and posts the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    1Cor15:19,

    Just curious why you would not recommend uniforming hunting ammo? I put just as much care if not more in prepping hunting ammo including sealing primers for Alaska hunts, that's probably over kill. I too use that uniformer and it cut true and fast.
    I am persnickety about my hunting ammo. I want the best balance of accuracy, velocity and reliability. As for not uniforming primer pockets the primary reason is reliability. A deeper primer pocket requires more firing pin intrusion and this can be exaggerated to such an extent that it create misfires. Doesn't happen often, may have never happened to you, but once is one time too many IMO for a hunting rifle.

    As far as trying different brands of primers I have to scratch my head on that one. They are made to a spec, different brands should not be bigger just thicker or thinner skinned. That doesn't affect OD or height. As I'm sure you know primers should be slightly below flush.
    Different lots of primers, by the same manufacturer will vary along allowed tolerances. My suspicion is that his brass is at the edge of its tolerance and the primers are at the edge of theirs. This creates a primer that is properly seated, but that rests a few thousandths above the case. A different manufacturer or lot of primers may be at the short end of the tolerance scale and therefore will work without modifying the primer pockets. It's just a thought, and I may well be wrong about that solving his problem. I am well aware of specs for loaded ammo, but I am also aware of normal industry tolerances and when you try to match various manufacturers, that are sometimes at the extreme of allowable tolerances, situations like this happen. That is simply the nature of mass production IMO.

    If the ogive isn't jammed into the lands and the brass chambers fine prior to seating as mentioned earlier then the extended primers seem reasonable in a rifle with a chamber set up on the tight side of spec. Hard to say for sure without taking at look.

    Either way I hope he gets it solved and posts the results.
    Seemed reasonable at first glance and I think it is certainly plausible. By way of anecdote, I hunted with a Rem 721 for a time in 30/06. I had a similar issue in that rifle using Winchester brass and CCI 200 primers. I switched to WLR and never had another problem in that rifle. If that is all it takes it will solve his problem quicker, easier and cheaper than uniforming his primer pockets. YMMV.

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    Persnickety, now that's a good word. I accept your brief and await his findings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wodje96 View Post
    I saw other threads on this issue and tried several of the recommendations which has got my brass fitting nicely before loading. Right now I can get very easy bolt closure with resized unloaded brass, but with the bullet seated the closing is tight. After firing the bolt is not tight. Any suggestions? The rifle is a kimber montana, no problems with factory ammo. Any help is appreciated
    I think that stid2677 hit on it in his first post.

    Your seating die has to be adjusted properly. Make sure the body of the die is adjusted to where the crimping shoulder in the seating die IS NOT touching the case neck. Put an empty case in the shell holder and run the ram all the way up. Turn the die down until the crimping shoulder contacts the neck, and then back it off so it isn't even close. Then adjust the seating stem for your seating depth for the bullet.

    If it does, contact, enough, the neck can be pushed down, and this will expand the shoulder, and can cause hard chambering, or even collapse the case. If you see a shiny ring around the shoulder, that's a clue.

    This may, or may not be your problem, but it is IMO, the Second most common cause of hard chambering of handloaded rounds. The First, of course, would be the sizing die adjustment.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    I am persnickety about my hunting ammo. I want the best balance of accuracy, velocity and reliability. As for not uniforming primer pockets the primary reason is reliability. A deeper primer pocket requires more firing pin intrusion and this can be exaggerated to such an extent that it create misfires. Doesn't happen often, may have never happened to you, but once is one time too many IMO for a hunting rifle.

    Different lots of primers, by the same manufacturer will vary along allowed tolerances. My suspicion is that his brass is at the edge of its tolerance and the primers are at the edge of theirs. This creates a primer that is properly seated, but that rests a few thousandths above the case. A different manufacturer or lot of primers may be at the short end of the tolerance scale and therefore will work without modifying the primer pockets. It's just a thought, and I may well be wrong about that solving his problem. I am well aware of specs for loaded ammo, but I am also aware of normal industry tolerances and when you try to match various manufacturers, that are sometimes at the extreme of allowable tolerances, situations like this happen. That is simply the nature of mass production IMO.

    Seemed reasonable at first glance and I think it is certainly plausible. By way of anecdote, I hunted with a Rem 721 for a time in 30/06. I had a similar issue in that rifle using Winchester brass and CCI 200 primers. I switched to WLR and never had another problem in that rifle. If that is all it takes it will solve his problem quicker, easier and cheaper than uniforming his primer pockets. YMMV.
    I gotta respectfully disagree with your PP Uniformer theory.

    Any PP Uniformer I've ever used cannot make the PP too deep. There's a shoulder on them that contacts the case head so it doesn't go too far.

    They make the bottom of the PP square, and of uniform depth. What I like about them the most, is that it insures that the primer DOESN'T protrude.

    I'm of the opinion that a primer would hafta be WAY out of Spec. to be too deep to cause a misfire, assuming your rifle wasn't messed up too.

    I fail to see why the idea persists that PP Uniformers can create problems. I think their the best thing, since potatos.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I gotta respectfully disagree with your PP Uniformer theory.

    Any PP Uniformer I've ever used cannot make the PP too deep. There's a shoulder on them that contacts the case head so it doesn't go too far.

    They make the bottom of the PP square, and of uniform depth. What I like about them the most, is that it insures that the primer DOESN'T protrude.

    I'm of the opinion that a primer would hafta be WAY out of Spec. to be too deep to cause a misfire, assuming your rifle wasn't messed up too.

    I fail to see why the idea persists that PP Uniformers can create problems. I think their the best thing, since potatos.

    Smitty of the North
    As always Smitty, you bring more than a little humor to the forum--"best thing, since potatoes." I love it.

    I think the idea persists because some have had misfires and the shooters can only attribute the problem to weak primer strikes. Since the rifle digests all other ammo with aplomb, this is best explained by primers resting too deep in the pocket. I won't say that it's a common problem, but I can say it has happened to me and that for ammo that needs the highest degree of reliability I don't do it. I believe in rigorous brass preparation, but I've never seen any measurable advantage in uniforming primer pockets in properly dimensioned brass. Obviously, YMMV.

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