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Thread: Winchester M70 classic stainless or Savage FSS16?

  1. #1

    Question Winchester M70 classic stainless or Savage FSS16?

    Hey all!

    I planning to buy a 30.06 hunting rifle, mainly for hunting elk under extreme weather conditions.

    I have 2 rifles in mind, which one should I get?
    I have no experience with Winchester so far, only Savage and I really love their out of the box accuracy:

    1. Winchester M70 classic stainless 30.06
    2. Savage 16FSS stainless 30.06


    Winchester M70 rifles are no longer produced, I know that's because of FN and Browning, could it be difficult to get replacement parts in the future?

    What about Winchester's accuracy w/o any "gun smithing", same as Savage?

    What about reliability when it comes to rain, snow and mud?
    Are there any sources these 2 rifles were tested under these extreme conditions?

    As i already told I'm a Winchester newbie, what should I look at when buying a Winchester? I heard of BOSS and pre64 systems, but really have no idea what this is all about.

    I would greatly appreciate any input.

    Thanks so much,
    Matt.

  2. #2

    Default Either one

    Either one will work, the Winchester likely has a smoother action. I own two Savages, and they are both like gravel crushers.

    Personally, if you are looking for an '06, I'd get a Kimber Montana in .308 or 300 short mag. You'd likely end up with a rifle/scope/sling combo that is under 7 lbs.

  3. #3
    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default I've got and use...

    a Model 70 Classic/stainless .300 Winchester Mag, and love the thing. I doubt that it'll bust before I quit using it. There's no doubt in my mind, either, that if I chose to down the road, the thing will have appreciated in value over what I paid for the thing. If nothing else, put the Model 70 in the safe, and get the Savage to use.

  4. #4

    Default the upside of the Savage

    I paid $330 for my Savage .338. Seeing some field wear on it really doesn't break my heart. That's value that is hard to beat, and I am very happy with my .338, despite the fact that the action isn't an Argentine Mauser

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    I suggest you take a look at the stainless Rugers. There only downfall is a bad trigger but this can be rfixed rather easily by any competent gunsmith. You can probably find a new one for under $600. And they come with scope rings, no bases required.
    Tennessee

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    Default

    Look at the Tikka T3 Lite. You can't go wrong with the Model 70 also.

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    New member George's Avatar
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    Default Win or Sav

    MattX,
    Personal opinion- buy the Winchester. Currently, most factory parts for recent Winchester models are available thru their (Browning) parts distribution center. In the future, key parts will be available from small independent makers for repair.

    Also, think of "off-the-lot resale value/depreciation". Love 'em, hate 'em or neutral- Savages depreciate a bunch once out the door. With few exceptions, the used rifle market has been, is and will likely always be soft.

    The "boss" system was tried by Win/Browning a few years ago. It was simply an adjustable barrel vibration dampening/tuning device added to the muzzle. They worked OK I guess but didn't catch the market on fire.

    The pre-64 "system" is really a nickname for a period of time in the manufacture of the Winchester Model 70 from introduction in 1935 thru 1963. That generally is recognized as the time when the best of the 70's were made- good trigger, classic lines, controlled round feed (Mauser type with claw extractor and fixed ejector), three position safety, milled/forged parts, handfitted to some extent etc. Some collectors even restrict that collectible category to the pre-war (WWII) 70s. Later versions (post-64 Model 70s) competed with Rem with more competitive pricing and a design change to push feed, cheaper stock, some stamped parts etc. The recent "Classic" model of the 70 you're referring to "was" Winchester's attempt to recapture the market lost after the changes in 1964. It is a more modern remake of the old pre-64 design using somewhat different manufactruing techniques. For some value perspective on the original pre-64 Win 70 action one only has to check the price of a Dakota action. My experience with both the push feed post-64 70 and the recent "Classic" controlled round feed 70 is that, regardless of their shortcomings, most are more accurate than their older cousins the pre-64s. Are they more valuable because of that- no.

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    I love M-70s, But the last stainless M-70 classic I bought was a piece of junk. They knew they were closing down and the quality showed. The Kimbers are a M-70 clone but they are nuts on their pricing.


    xx

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    Thumbs up

    I grew up being a Winchester fan, shotguns and rifles. My first pre-64 was a 338 WM with BOSS. I love its smooth action and respectible groups. I purchased my first Savage in the 1980's and now own four rifles, and one Striker in 308. They are exremely accurate for their very reasonable price. They have become more expensive over the years, but are still a bargin, especialy the Stevens (now made by Savage). I have never regreted owning one. The action is not as smooth/sweet as my pre-64 or Tikka, but again, for putting the bullet in the mark, it would be very hard to beat. (I still have a soft spot for the Winchester pre-64, but senimental won't put venison in the freezer. Either way, you'll have a great rifle. Just my 2 cents.

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    If you purchased a pre 64 with a BOSS then I am 99.9% sure that someone added the BOSS after the rifle was built.
    The closest rifle to a W70 being built today is the Montana Rifle Company (MRC) action and barreled actions.
    They can be bought is dang near any caliber from .223 up and beyond the 458 Lott, right or left hand, stainless and blued.
    The Kimber has a claw extractor but there trigger is not as open or as fool proof as the Win 70 or the MRC
    Tennessee

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Some folks see the little cardboard tag that says pre-64 action and think it means it is really a pre-64 action. It's not. It just has a claw exractor like the original pre-64s.
    If money is no object don't forget the Dakota rifles... They are a good pre-64 style high end rifle that will never go down in value...

  12. #12
    Member WinMag_300's Avatar
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    Default Between the two, get the Win. 70 if you can afford it.

    If you like Mauser type actions, the Model 70 is your best choice. I think second best would be CZ or Dakota. Ruger's Mauser clone looks like a Model 70 to the unitiated, but actually is quite different. Ruger uses fewer forged and milled parts in favor of castings and powdered metal.

    Winchester improved upon the Mauser design and elevated its manufacture to an art form using high grade steel, forging and milling processes. There is no soft metal in a model 70 and it is heavier than the Ruger. But still, there is nothing wrong with a Ruger and it is plenty strong enough.

    Savage is a good action, but nowhere near as solid as a Win. Model 70 or Remington Model 700. Savage has a reputation for accuracy but the action has too many moving parts and it is not jeweled like a Remington 700. The Savage bolt needs to be shoved back and forth while the Remington bolt will slide easily back and forth when the bolt is unlatched and the rifle is tilted.

    The BOSS was called the Ballistic Optimizing Shooting System. It was a weight added to the muzzle of the rifle that could be adjusted to dampen vibration and "tune" the rifle for various cartridges and bullets. It was kind of like balancing a tire on your car. Moving the weight causes the barrel dynamics to change when the rifle was fired. Personally, that degree of tinkering is not necessary to achieve good accuracy in a rifle and it adds unnecessary weight and bulk to a hunting rifle.

    Winchester pre '64 and classic both have the much ballyhooed controlled round feed claw extractor. Read up on that topic. There is too much history and opinion for me to expound here. My humble opinion is that the oversized extractor is overrated and Remington 700 and Savage and Browning A-bolt shooters know that a push feed action is more user-friendly and every bit as reliable as a CRF action if not more so. People often laud the CRF action without telling you about the problems they have had with it. I have never failed to easily extract a round from my Remington 700 and I don't know anyone else who has. CRF prevents you from loading a round directly into the chamber and the magazine needs to be loaded first. This is a drawback IMHO.

    My personal opinion is that the Remington 700 is a better and more accurate rifle than Savage and Winchester 70. Lots of people will argue and I will be glad to chew the rag over a shot of espresso or cognac.

    Disclaimer: these are all my humble opinions and I reserve the right to discuss them further over a drink.
    A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone. - Henry David Thoreau

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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WinMag_300 View Post
    CRF prevents you from loading a round directly into the chamber and the magazine needs to be loaded first. This is a drawback IMHO.

    This is a huge drawback IMO, thank you for pointing that out.
    The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.

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    That is simply not true. I own two Winchesters, one Ruger, and one MRC. All are CRF. Once the magazione is full I can open the action and slip a round in and close the bolt on it. It is a little more difficult than pulling one up from the magazine but it is easily accomplished.
    Tennessee

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default

    There was always a bunch of stuff about single loading in a controlled feed action might hurt the extractor as it rides over the case rim.

    BUT, look at the 1903 Springfield, A Mauser copy (improvement) which had a magazine cut-off built into the action. So the rifleman in the WWI era trench could single load and snipe away while retaining his full magazine for when the Huns ran over the top of their trench.

    If you get that worried about topping off a m-70, just load the chamber via the magazine, then turn the gun over, pop open the magazine floor plate and top off the magazine from there....

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    Member Doug in Alaska's Avatar
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    Default

    In my opinion, the Remington 700 is the way to go. I've been shooting M700s for about 40 years (geez, I must be ancient!) and love them. If you don't like Remingtons I'd take a look at the Kimbers. Kimber makes a fine rifle and they are now offering their rifles in stainless and synthetic. Just my opinion.
    Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

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    Member WinMag_300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinMag_300 View Post
    ... CRF prevents you from loading a round directly into the chamber and the magazine needs to be loaded first. This is a drawback IMHO...
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    That is simply not true. I own two Winchesters, one Ruger, and one MRC. All are CRF. Once the magazione is full I can open the action and slip a round in and close the bolt on it. It is a little more difficult than pulling one up from the magazine but it is easily accomplished.
    Snowwolfe, sounds like you are not loading the chamber directly. The claw extractor prevents the round from going directly into the chamber. You are finessing the round behind the claw as if it was coming from the magazine. Yes, it can be done, but that is not loading a round directly into the chamber and it takes a lot more effort and time than a push feed action would require.
    A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone. - Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Honestly...

    I personally like the Winchesters, whether they are CRF or the XTR push-feed. If it were me, given those two choices, I'd get the Winchester, but not in synthetic--I just don't like plastic stocks.

    But it ain't me, it's you, and if you have to ask these things, I'm guessing you probably won't fully appreciate the differences enough to make the Winchester worth the extra money. Both are very reliable (generally speaking--you can find a lemon by any manufacturer), and Savage generally has a better reputation for accuracy, Winchester more for fit and finish, better trigger (except the Savage Accu-trigger). Get yourself a reliable, accurate Savage and spend the bucks you save on better glass.

    If you do appreciate the little niceties, you'll be happier with the Winchester. What's important to you? Function, accuracy and price...or nicerfit and finish, more attention to detail (again, generally speaking), etc.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinMag_300 View Post
    Snowwolfe, sounds like you are not loading the chamber directly. The claw extractor prevents the round from going directly into the chamber. You are finessing the round behind the claw as if it was coming from the magazine. Yes, it can be done, but that is not loading a round directly into the chamber and it takes a lot more effort and time than a push feed action would require.
    Whats the difference as long as the round is going into the chamber and can be ejected by retracting the bolt? I can still drop a round in on top of the loaded magazine and close the bolt and shoot the rifle and eject the case.
    Tennessee

  20. #20
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    Default The Claw extractor...

    Quote Originally Posted by WinMag_300 View Post
    Snowwolfe, sounds like you are not loading the chamber directly. The claw extractor prevents the round from going directly into the chamber. You are finessing the round behind the claw as if it was coming from the magazine. Yes, it can be done, but that is not loading a round directly into the chamber and it takes a lot more effort and time than a push feed action would require.
    Win Mag,

    Many of the pre-64's will close on a chambered round. Either the extractor has been beveled slightly or usually just polishing it will do to allow it to slip over the cartridge rim. With the old Mausers it was common to pinch the extractor to pull it open a bit and allow it to slip over the rim. The MRC actions will slip over if they are polished or if you pinch them. My Dakota's all will close on a chambered round and easily slip over the rim. I have some commercial mausers and all will slip over the chambered cartridge if I pinch the extractor.

    But in any case it can be a detriment in a hunting rifle or a benefit. I do prefer controlled round feeding especially for larger calibers and the tough stuff.

    All old Mauser shooters know how to pinch the extractor to get an extra round in the gun. I think most people who use the Mauser system prefer the ability to close the bolt on a chambered round.

    As to the notion that it damages the extractor, I ain't buying it. I've done it way too many times to believe that.

    Another major benefit of the Mauser/Winchester/Dakota/MRC system is the fixed mechanical ejector which is more reliable than a spring powered plunger. Some of the ejectors are better than others within the CRF type rifles, but I prefer that over the Remington/Browning/Savage extraction/ejection systems.

    We might debate whether the 03-A3 is better than the K98 but the magazine cut off and single feeding capability would certainly be a plus for me.

    I would however take you up on the offer to further discuss over moderate imbibement. Agree or disagree it would be a welcomed discussion.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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