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Thread: Way To Go Trout Ulimited!!!

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    In regards to this issue.... FTU

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    Member stevelyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13 View Post
    In regards to this issue.... FTU
    +1. I agree.
    Now what ?

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    Default So you're saying...

    That you'd like to see the mine open & operating no matter what impact on Bristol Bay fishing?

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs down pebble mine

    it is beyond me how any sportsman can not find fault with northern dynasty's proposals.
    the earth dam they want to build would be the LARGEST DAM ON THE PLANET !! larger than the yangtze dam in china, and it is to hold toxic tailings, not drinking water.
    and though NDM claims that the best science supports their claim that the dam will withstand powerful earthquakes, remember that they are talking about FOREVER!!
    NDM says that they only want to "develop" 3% of the bristol bay watershed, but let me ask you this...if you drink from a stream and someone dumps dog poop in 3% of the spring that feeds it, is the water still clean?
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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I need a J O B, what are you offering?

    To be honest, I would rather see and American company, or Alaskan company for that matter, taking on this project. This a free market and a Canadian company has stepped up to the plate first, so they get the first swing. As sportsmen, we cannot oppose every development effort that comes around. Oppose ANWAR, oppose Pebble, stop logging, stop commercial fishing, and where am I supposed to work? We're talking about thousands of good paying jobs with benefits for decades to come vs. 15 square miles of development. I say "Start now, and where can I apply for a job?"

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Exclamation jobs for now...pits forever.

    uh...What are you referring to when you say "stop" commercial fishing?
    the object here is to save it...and the thousands of jobs the bristol bay watershed ALREADY provides, through commercial, sport, and tourist industries.
    Last edited by Daveinthebush; 01-08-2007 at 18:20. Reason: Inappropriate Acronym
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    Default where am I supposed to work?

    Educate yourself & become a fishing guide in the BB region & then find out what happens once you support the pebble mine....

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    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13 View Post
    To be honest, I would rather see and American company, or Alaskan company for that matter, taking on this project. This a free market and a Canadian company has stepped up to the plate first, so they get the first swing.
    I'd rather see NO company "get the first swing". We're talking about an ecosystem here that is one of the most spectacular on the continent.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    As sportsmen, we cannot oppose every development effort that comes around.
    As ALASKANS we should do everything we can to ensure that the state we have grown up in and cherish isn't ripped, shredded, dredged, poisoned, plundered and pillaged all in pursuit on monetary gain. Development is not a bad thing. Unchecked development is the pandora's box that is best left locked up. Creating the "Largest open pit mine" that sits in a location poised, at the first "accident", to destroy multiple watersheds, and create a virtual dead zone in one of the most ecoligically sensitive regions of our state is NOT positive development. It's russian roulette.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Oppose ANWAR, oppose Pebble, stop logging, stop commercial fishing, and where am I supposed to work?
    Where do you work now? Do you have the skills to fill the roles of a roughneck,miner,logger, and fisherman? Plenty of opportunity in all those fields already exists. That "we need the jobs" argument is a weak one at best. Plenty of jobs up here for those willing to put up with the conditions and demands set forth to acquire one. And here's a lil' hypothetical for ya..IF (God forbid) Pebble DOES go in, and when (not IF) there is an accident that poisons the runs of Bristol Bay salmon, which would undoubtedly result in lawsuits and a shutdown of the mine...Well...you get the picture...I hope.

    *why do so many folks add the second "A" to ANWR? Arctic National Wildlife Refuge......Guess they just look for "WAR" everywhere, eh? <grin>




    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex
    We're talking about thousands of good paying jobs with benefits for decades to come vs. 15 square miles of development. I say "Start now, and where can I apply for a job?"
    Atta boy, sell yer state, yer kids future's and yer integrity for a CHANCE at a maybe job if yer lucky....

    ...Reminds me of a saying involving draggers..but applicable here...

    .."I'd rather have a sister in a brothel than a brother working for northern dynasty..."


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    Unhappy From Bristol Bay Times 12/28/06

    Proposed mine could cost state billions, agency says Reclassification of land
    could be costly project By Ben Stuart

    Just saying “no” to the proposed Pebble Mine project could cost the state billions of dollars, according to a legal opinion from Alaska’s Legislative Affairs Agency. Reclassification of the land use in the area to make mining illegal or a regulatory or legislative action that imposed excessive requirements for necessary permits could require the state to pay the area claim holder, Northern Dynasty, just compensation, the opinion says. That compensation, calculated by taking the future value of the minerals in the ground, minus the expenditures required to dig them out, would likely total billions of dollars or enough to wipe out Alaskans’ permanent fund dividends, said Rep. Paul Seaton, R- Homer. Seaton said he asked for the information from the Alaska Division of Legal and Research Services to answer questions from some of his constituents who want to stop the Pebble Mine at all cost. “I didn’t want to give scare tactics,” he said. “People should be aware of what the potential, of the negatives of denying that use. The liability is on every Alaskan.”
    The Pebble Project is an initiative of Vancouver, British Columbia’s Northern Dynasty Mines Inc. to develop, build and operate a copper, gold, silver and molybdenum mine north of Iliamna Lake in southwest Alaska. According to its Web site, Northern Dynasty has spent more than $70 million toward the development of the project and plans to spend $15 million to $20 million
    more this year.
    As of January, the mineral resource at the site is estimated at 24.3 billion pounds of copper, 22.1 million ounces of gold, and 1.6 billion pounds of molybdenum. All told, it is worth nearly $100 billion at today’s prices. But many environmental groups, along with commercial, sportfishing and some Native groups, have opposed the mine, saying the proposed site would damage the local ecosystem and kill valuable fish stocks.
    Numerous proposals making their way through state boards are aimed at limiting the environmental impact of the mine. One such proposal, by George Matz of Homer, would create a fish refuge within the hydrographic
    boundaries of the Kvichak and Nushagak-Mulchatna river drainages in the area. That proposal was tabled at the Alaska Board of Fisheries meeting
    in Dillingham on Dec. 4 for further review.
    In a press release, Northern Dynasty categorized the tabling as a win for the project. “Proposal 121 and other efforts to establish a fish refuge in Bristol Bay are a clear and unapologetic attempt by the opponents of the
    Pebble Mine to deny our project a fair hearing under Alaskan Law,” said Northern Dynasty’s Chief Operating Officer Bruce Jenkins in the release.
    “Of course, we’re very pleased that the Board of Fisheries has not lent its good name to this effort,” he said. But Matz, who attended the meeting, said the tabling was merely procedural and that he’s confident the idea has legs. “I felt it was very positive,” Matz said. “Anyone who was at the meeting knows that this wasn’t delayed.”
    With the potential for big money lawsuits surrounding the project, lawmakers must look at any proposal or regulations that may infringe on Northern Dynasty’s mineral rights in the Pebble area closely, Seaton said.
    But that doesn’t mean residents and lawmakers shouldn’t ask for strict regulations to protect the area’s waters or land, he said. “You need to balance development with a sustainable environment,” he said.
    Tom Crafford, the acting large mine coordinator for the Alaska Department of Natural Resources, said that balance may rest with the intent of any proposed regulation change. If the regulation or legislative action is targeted at a single project, it gives that project ammo for going
    to court, he said. Matz argues that his fish refuge proposal doesn’t target Pebble specifically. “It’s deserving on its own accord,” Matz said. “I’m not the first with this idea.” Matz said the idea actually started with the late Gov. Jay Hammond many years before Northern Dynasty started ramping
    up its project at Pebble. In fact, a draft bill that could make its way to the Legislature would name a game refuge after Hammond.
    The bill’s sponsor, Sen. Gary Stevens, R-Kodiak, said it’s premature to say the bill would reach the floor during the next session. He said it is still in the fact-finding stage, and he wants to look at any legal ramifications of such an action as well as get a better idea about what the people in the area want.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Beware the knee-jerk reaction.

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    Why don't you tell me what's going to happen. The day the first excavator goes to work commercial and sport fishing will be over in the entire watershed? If commercial fishing goes away in the area it will be because of international competition from fish farmers, not from a mining project. What makes you think development can not coexist with tourism and sport fishing? Did the Alaska pipeline destroy the caribou herds? Did it make people not want to go to Denali? Did the Exxon oil spill ruin PWS? That's probably the worst example of environmental contamination in a delicate habitat and how did that turn out? Last I heard there was still some fishing and hunting going on there, maybe even a tourist or two gets to the area. Do you think that in todays age of over zealous EPA agents and DEC goons running around shutting down everything that hints of pollution a new mining project would get away with destroying the Bristol Bay watersheds? Get real, this isn't the 1920's. Southcentral Alaska needs the economic development and Alaska needs to diversify it's income streams. And as far as the jobs that the region currently provide, I'm sure that you would agree that in comparison, they are low paying, seasonal and generally unreliable. Oh yeah, I am educated and have worked in the guide business (albiet not as a guide) and commercial fished the Cook Inlet so I'm not some Oregoniod standing on a soapbox.

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    Talking But...

    Did did a big yellow taxi take away your old man?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13 View Post
    Why don't you tell me what's going to happen.
    I just did..

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    The day the first excavator goes to work commercial and sport fishing will be over in the entire watershed?
    Not the first day, don't be obtuse...But it will certainly be the lighting of a fuse on a powderkeg of ecological disaster...


    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    If commercial fishing goes away in the area it will be because of international competition from fish farmers, not from a mining project.
    Very simplistic explanation of a far more complicated market structure. My apologies but I don't fall for sound byte rhetoric.



    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    What makes you think development can not coexist with tourism and sport fishing?
    Do you REALLY want a list of all the hydro-electric development in the western states that decimated wild salmon runs? Or would you prefer to look at the raw sewage in Campbell Creek that shut down not only the Campbell Creek Classic, but the sprt fishery as well? Mercury levels in catfish in the White river in Indiana? Non-Native fish species in the great lakes from ballast discharge?

    Sorry, your argument there has more holes than the reactor at 3 mile island...


    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Did the Alaska pipeline destroy the caribou herds? Did it make people not want to go to Denali?
    Um, how long have ya been here? Last time I checked the pipeline went nowhere near Denali.....


    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Did the Exxon oil spill ruin PWS? That's probably the worst example of environmental contamination in a delicate habitat and how did that turn out?
    Now THAT comment just smacks of stupidity and ignorance, sorry.

    "...
    As a result, many species suffered long-term loss, he said. For example, chronic exposure to the oil in mouths of streams boosted mortality among incubating pink salmon eggs for at least four years after the spill.
    "Higher mortality was induced by concentrations of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons of only a few parts per billion," Peterson said. "These results require a complete reconsideration of the foundations of ecological risk assessment and ecotoxicology because acute mortality from oil involves concentrations perhaps 1,000 times greater. Earlier experiments incorrectly implied that lower oil concentrations were safe, which the new work clearly showed was not true."
    Beyond their acute losses, marine mammals and sea ducks suffered high mortality for years after the accident in part because they ate invertebrates contaminated by the hidden oil and also contacted oil directly while digging up prey. Species as diverse as sea otters, harlequin ducks and killer whales suffered large, long-term losses. Oiled mussel beds and other tidal shoreline habitats will take an estimated 30 years to recover..."

    Source:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1219073313.htm

    The PWS you see today is NOT the one that existed prior to Exxon Valdez. And it never will be again. Ask the Herring Fisherman.



    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Last I heard there was still some fishing and hunting going on there, maybe even a tourist or two gets to the area.
    Oh, since some animals survived and tourists still go there it MUST be as pristine as it was before? Please.....


    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Do you think that in todays age of over zealous EPA agents and DEC goons running around shutting down everything that hints of pollution a new mining project would get away with destroying the Bristol Bay watersheds?
    Exxon Valdez
    3 mile Island
    Love Canal
    Fraser River
    Columbia River Salmon Runs
    Cuyohoga River Fire
    BP Oil Spill in Prudhoe Bay last winter


    All recent history. All disasters on varying levels.
    Next?



    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Southcentral Alaska needs the economic development and Alaska needs to diversify it's income streams.
    Agreed. But not at the risk of our future nor our stae.


    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    And as far as the jobs that the region currently provide, I'm sure that you would agree that in comparison, they are low paying, seasonal and generally unreliable.
    Low paying? Not by the national standard. Seasonal? For some yes, for those that want 9 to 5 365, there are alternatives. Unreliable? How reliable will seasonal fishing jobs become in the wake of Dam failure at Pebble?


    Quote Originally Posted by tyrex13
    Oh yeah, I am educated and have worked in the guide business (albiet not as a guide) and commercial fished the Cook Inlet so I'm not some Oregoniod standing on a soapbox.
    Californian?

    <grin>
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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    Been here almost 32 years, ever since I was born at CPGH, what about you?

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    38 this spring.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    I think someone has figured out how to push alaskahippies buttons
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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    i'm not anti development, as it does have its uses. but i think we need to be carefull what door we open and who and how many go thru it. perhaps the first group we let in should do something a littler smaller scale than THE BIGGEST DAM IN THE WORLD...maybe they should see what happens with something more like a large beaver dam. walking into country like pebble is talking about and totaly reconstructing the ecosystem is a pretty big step with alot of IF's and MAYBE's and WE'LL SEE's. Ironic that they don't want to mine in the middle of nowhere, it just happens to be a place full of other natural resources that are already being used. why can't it be half way to Nome, i'm sure Mcgrath would love some jobs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgreen View Post
    I think someone has figured out how to push alaskahippies buttons
    ..<grin>...

    I have a low tolerance for more than a few things...
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
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    Wink Just remember this one AKHIPPIE...

    If ignorance were bliss, they'd be HAPPY!!!

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    What difference does it make, ANWR is in the middle of nowhere and greenies are fighting that tooth and nail as well.

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