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Thread: 308 Win vs 30-06 & 358 Win vs 35 Whelen

  1. #1

    Default 308 Win vs 30-06 & 358 Win vs 35 Whelen

    I was loading some 358 Winny loads for a friend the other day and whilst I was loading he was gawking at my Nosler manual. He asked me how his 358 compared to the 35 Whelen. Since I'm the one who has the Nosler manual sitting next to the crapper there isn't much excuse for getting this one wrong. With confidence I said they are pretty close but the 358 is a step behind the Whelen. Then he said "Well, not according to this book". He was right! These are the exact top loads as found in Noslers 5th edition manual for the 358 Win and the 35 Whelen.

    Nosler 180 grain Partition top load

    358 Win 35 Whelen
    23" Lilja Barrel 24" Lilja Barrel
    49.5 gr H335=2716 fps 56 gr IMR 4320=2715 fps
    Nosler 225 grain Partition top load
    49.5 gr. IMR4895=2528 fps 56.5 gr RL15=2525 fps

    And furthermore...same manual. 308 Win vs 30-06..... This finding probably has less meaning in Alaska as the 150 grain bullet probably isn't the go to bullet. However in these parts everybody loads their 308s and 06's with 150s. The 06 does run away with the title with bullets over 150 grains.

    Nosler 150 grain ballistic tip top load

    308 Win 30-06
    Lilja 24" barrel Lilja 24" barrel
    48.5 gr Varget=3001 fps 59 gr IMR4350=3000 fps

    These are John Noslers findings not mine and they speak volumes for the short 308 family of cartridges.

    I've always held to the old saying "What ever the 308 will do the 06 will do a little better!" Well, thats not always the case!

    I had this layed out so it was easy to read but when I hit the submit button it removed all voids and scrambled it together. You have to look a tad bit harder but you can still see the point I was trying to make.

  2. #2
    Member marshall's Avatar
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    The 308 is a great round. However, as you mentioned when the weights go up the 06 will walk away.

    I have a 20" 1:10 twist 308 and the 175gr Berger is my go to bullet. The 06 will deliver the 175 with more speed but my 308 puts them in the same hole.

  3. #3

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    Both pairs are close enough that small differences in individual rifles seems to make as much difference as case capacity. If I was stretching for the last fps with heavy bullets in either 30 or 35 cal, I'd instinctively grab the bigger case. But in my experiences on game, velocity differences of less than 200 fps don't mean spit.

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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default .358 vs.35 Whelen

    To what pressure levels are the two being loaded? I have always found the .35 Whelen loads on the mild side. I think anything over the 225 and the bullets are going to extend into the case too much when loaded to MOL in the .358. The .358 is an excellent round but when compared apples to apples against the .35 Whelen, it will loose.
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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    With lighter bullets I'm not sure the bigger case is all that beneficial. I've been shooting a .308 for years and have no problems hitting 3000fps with some factory loads in the 150gr. I do have a 1:12 24" barrel so that helps some- to what extent I don't know. A 150 gr. TSX at 3000fps sound interesting though...wonder what the pentration is like? Would it be equivalent to a 180gr cup and core? Hmmm....

    I have to say I've shot nearly all of my critters with either an '06 or the .308 in a variety of bullet weights and I've never felt there was any practical difference at all. I think the ballistics chart matters more to us than the critters...

  6. #6

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    I don't really distinguish between them. Whichever you own is good, and if you want significantly more power, moving from the 308 to the 06 or from the 358 to the Whelen isn't enough different to warrant the buxx.

    If I'm shooting a 308 and want more power, I'm skipping the 06 and going to a 300 Mag of some sort. If I'm shooting a 358 and want more power, I'm skipping the Whelen and going to a 358 Norma Mag or something similar.

    The bigger question for me is the details in the rifles themselves. I've got 358's cause they're levers and a small light bolt. I've got 308's for the same reason. I'd be just as happy with a lever or small bolt in 06 or Whelen, but if I'm going to a bigger rifle, it will be one of the mags.

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    I went with the 35 Whelen because I could find factory ammo. If you look at BrownBear's posts on his .358 it makes you want to reload and get a .358.

    I have a .308 because I wanted the shorter bolt in that rifle. If I need something bigger than the .308, I have the .35 Whelen.

    The way I look at it is like this. Get what you want and shoot away. They are so close ballistically, you can't go wrong either way.

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    Wow! This is timely...I was just drooling all over a gorgeous Remington I found for sale for about $500-$600 in .35 Whelen and wondering what the ballistics looked like and if ammo was readily available. BTW, my friends would absolutely drop dead if they heard me compliment a Remington, so you know the gun was a beauty.
    Grits

  9. #9

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    If I remember correctly, a rarity lately, most of the 35Whelan loads were developed to be underpressure because of the number of 1903A3's that were converted to 35 Whelan originally. I believe that this is stated in the Lyman book. Newer receivers should be able to handle full pressure loads which will seperate the Whelan from the 358Win.

    Noticeable on the receiving end? Not certain but a definitelt small step above ballistically.

    I think the biggest difference will be when you try to load a longer bullet. Powder capacity is really limited with the .308 cartridge when you stick a long high BC bullet down it's throat.

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    "If I remember correctly, a rarity lately, most of the 35Whelan loads were developed to be underpressure because of the number of 1903A3's that were converted to 35 Whelan originally. I believe that this is stated in the Lyman book....."


    I'm curious about that. The Govt tested the 1903's and 03-A3's to 125k psi and they didnt have any trouble. The low number guns had some troubles, many feel they aren't safe to shoot with any load. That's another story tho, and well documented and discussed.

  11. #11

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    I would go for the .358 win.

  12. #12
    Supporting Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    all good cartridges, though i've never put too much stock in a 100 fps. difference (give or take). most folks use a 30 caliber in the 180 grain bullet range up here. very rarely have I run into a hunter who shot anything larger in bullet weight....unless they were handloaders. AK_lanche had dropped a couple grizz with his 308, and the short little carbine 308's are just as useful IMO as a 30-06 when using a 180 grain (or 200 grain partition) bullet. It's when you step up to a 220 grainer that the 30-06 has a notable advantage. With the whelen and the 358....they both can push a 250 grainer, and they both have very mild load data in all the reloding manuals. The worst I've seen.....is the rediculous velocity listings in the Swift manual, they looked like 35 remington velocity listings. I'll stick with my little powerhouse 358, plenty of range and power for me.

    matnaggewinu


  13. #13

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    I checked and didn't see it my Lyman manual. May be a figment of my imagination.

    I recall reading somewhere that the commercial loads were kept under pressure because of the high number of shot-out Springfields that were being converted to this new wildcat turned production cartridge.

    I've personally have never seen such a conversion so who knows. Let's chalk it up to internet myth till I can either verify or someone else who knows better chimes in.

    I'm semi-away from home now so I have limited access to my data sources.

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    I have both a M700 CDL 35 Whelen and a Browning BLR 358W. I can get about 2580 out of the Whelen with 250gr Speer Hot Cors' using RL15. Cases, primers and bolt lift all look and feel very good to me, so I think I could push it, but I am happy with the accuracy I get. About the best I can get out of the 358 with 250's is 2300. That is using W748 and the Speers. Again, the loads are very accurate for a lever gun, but this just shows me the 358 is probably much better off with the 225 and lower bullets. They are both great rounds and when loaded to their potential and very serious big game rifles. Good hunting. Scotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by beretzs View Post
    I have both a M700 CDL 35 Whelen and a Browning BLR 358W. I can get about 2580 out of the Whelen with 250gr Speer Hot Cors' using RL15. Cases, primers and bolt lift all look and feel very good to me, so I think I could push it, but I am happy with the accuracy I get. About the best I can get out of the 358 with 250's is 2300. That is using W748 and the Speers. Again, the loads are very accurate for a lever gun, but this just shows me the 358 is probably much better off with the 225 and lower bullets. They are both great rounds and when loaded to their potential and very serious big game rifles. Good hunting. Scotty
    This seems about right IME. Comparisons are continually made, but they are rarely comparing apples to apples. I suspect that in the prescribed load of RL15 and 250 Speer bullets (24 inch barrel CDL) that the load is pushing the pressure ceiling for the Whelen. I suspect the same about the 358 Win load. The BLR is a 20 inch tube and likely has another 100 fps or so left in that load if fired in another four inches of barrel. So the difference, comparing apples to apples, is about 150 fps with equal pressures using identical bullets and ideal powders for both cartridges in the same barrel lengths. I think this external ballistic difference is real and undeniable, though some will no doubt disagree.

    I think the greater issue is what effect this produces in the field and that is where these clear differences become rather cloudy. I've no doubt of the effectiveness of the 358 Win on big game and it is suitable for all NA big game IMO. I think the difference is entirely one of effective range and the Whelen ('06) has about a 75-100 yard advantage over the 358 Win (308 Win)--with identical bullets. By that I mean that the Whelen's terminal velocity will approximate that of the 358 Win at an additional 75-100 yards. Whether that matters or not is another question altogether, but the comparison of these cartridges is fairly cut & dry.

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    I guess I forgot to point out what you did, that is, if they were both shot out of 24" barrels they would have been a little closer. Either way, though, the 358 is a 250-300 yard rifle the way it shoots for me and the 35 Whelen is good enough for a 350 yard gun, maybe a mite more. For the most part, they are interchangeable to me. Drop the 358 down to 225gr bullets and it is about equal (kind of) to the 35 Whelen, as far as range. These are just my opinions, but they are great calibers and do well for me. Scotty

  17. #17

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    My 358Win Ruger Hawkeye with a 22 inch barrel drives a 225gr Accubond at 2556fps and shoots 1/2" at 100yds. Dropped an 8 point this year with it at 105yds and the bullet exited but the deer was DRT (dead right there). A 300yds shot is a very doable shot. I know it is doable, because my friend Jerry and I practice at 300yds with the 358Win and this very hunting load.
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    Supporting Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    My 358Win Ruger Hawkeye with a 22 inch barrel drives a 225gr Accubond at 2556fps and shoots 1/2" at 100yds. Dropped an 8 point this year with it at 105yds and the bullet exited but the deer was DRT (dead right there). A 300yds shot is a very doable shot. I know it is doable, because my friend Jerry and I practice at 300yds with the 358Win and this very hunting load.
    that's why I view it as an intermediate range cartridge. the spitzer bullets allow plenty of downrange energy to get the job done with a full power 250 grain loads at 300 yards too.....which evidently......is allllllll the gun I'll prob ever need. Your full power ballistic tip load would be a great mountain rifle load. but.......to find someone who would take the shot at a goat or sheep with a 358.....it will prob. never happen. Im actually wondering what the energy and trajectory of your load would be @ 400 yds. If you have that info.....post it if you dont mind because I'd like to compare it to a 30-06 180 grain ballistic tipped figures.

    matnaggewinu


  19. #19

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    The 225gr Accubond moving a 2556fps and sighted in a 3" high at 100yds is -5 at 280 yds and is -26.5 at 400yds and has a muzzle energy of 3213ft pounds and at 400yds 1628ft pounds.
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  20. #20

    Question

    Why does the 225gr Accubond have a lower BC than the 225gr partition which is a spizter and not a very pointy BT?

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