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Thread: Buffalo Bore customer service question...

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    Member chriso's Avatar
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    Default Buffalo Bore customer service question...

    I had emailed Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore about their customer service and these recent issues discussed at length here on this forum and he indicated to me that only 3 guys had actually contacted him and that 2 of the 3 cases were satisfactorily resolved and one was pending. I followed many of the threads about Buffalo Bore, since I like the idea of carrying something a bit hotter in case I have to deal with a bear someday with my wife and kids present. But, it seemed to me a greater number of folks indicated they'd had issues and I never did get the impression they were resolved.

    I did a bit of research and identified at least 14 forum members claiming to have had issues, I wonder .338-06, roach, akspecialus, gritlife, badman, agl alaska, adfields, armymark, waterwolf, marshall, ridehard, btk, brfshooter, rbuck351m can I ask you guys to verify that these issues were resolved and weather or not you actually contacted BB to try getting them resolved?

    If they in fact satisfactorily took care of all these issues, or if we failed to contact them and give them the opportunity to do so, then we collectively probably owe BB an apology. If not, I'd like to know that as well, so I can make a more informed decision as to what to do with my present stash of BB ammo, and weather or not to replenish it.

    Thanks, Chris

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    Chriso,

    First you just posted incorrect information. In my email to you, l stated that with millions of rounds of ammo sold each year, only three customers had ever contacted me with "blown or cracked" guns. I NEVER siad only three customers had ever contacted me with any type of complaint, NEVER, yet that is what you just posted. Go back and check my email (in fact post it here, now that it has been misrepresented) and you will see what I actually wrote to you. If you are going to try and drege up problems for me, you need to be as ethical/accurate as possible, otherwise you become part of the whole internet problem.

    See how easily postings on the internet can become one sided and thus inaccurate?? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriso View Post
    I did a bit of research and identified at least 14 forum members claiming to have had issues, I wonder .338-06, roach, akspecialus, gritlife, badman, agl alaska, adfields, armymark, waterwolf, marshall, ridehard, btk, brfshooter, rbuck351m can I ask you guys to verify that these issues were resolved and weather or not you actually contacted BB to try getting them resolved?
    Thanks, Chris
    Mine was a fail to fire 454 in my 460V last year. I contacted them and received an email saying it was week strike on the small rifle primer, my gun not the ammo. The ammo had FTF in two other guns so after the email I pulled the bullets and reloaded them. I never bothered to push it farther just stopped buying and recommending BB.

    Now that's been over a year ago and what ticked me off was being shrugged off not the ammo problem itself. It looks like the attitude has changed as Tim is here trying to set things right. So how about we give him a chance to do so by going forward not backward.
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    Tim,

    Can you elaborate on the 3 cases you mentioned. Were they specific to one caliber (like .38special)? I like my Buffalo 158LSWCHP standard pressures, and have had good luck...but I am curious about any issues.

    Perhaps it might help also to explain how you responded. Did you "make them right"?

    I have been happy with my BB's so far, and that's what's in my .38special right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by adfields
    It looks like the attitude has changed as Tim is here trying to set things right. So how about we give him a chance to do so by going forward not backward.
    Quoted for truth.


    Sidenote: Also, any thoughts about a .38/200 or 180 LSWCHP (standard pressure) in the works? Or, has something like that proved ineffective out of less than .357 pressures/volocities? PM me if necessary to avoid a hijack of this thread.

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    ADFields,

    I'm trying to remember any one reporting a FTF with 454's in a S&W 460 revolver and I can't. I do remeber a couple FTF in 454 Redhawks, but not a 460 S&W. I'm sorry I can not remember, if I could, I would comment.

    Honestly I never intend to shrug any one off either, but what will sometimes happen is that I will have three employees needing me, just finished an argument with my wife, just learned my shipping manager shipped the wrong product to a customer, my horses just got out and are stomping the neighbors garden, I have upset customers because I have not shipped thier ammo yet and then the phone rings with some one having a problem--I do my best to listen while I am trying to put out the other fires and I give them an honest and detailed answer, but I do it fast and with exactness, which means I some times fail to take the time to really let them think I care. Oh, I answer thier questions, but it is some times an answer they dont want to hear or cant accept that quickly. This scenario has happened more than once in the last thirteen years. And I'll admit one more thing---I know we are short handed on the customer service end. Roughly 90% of our phone calls are technical in nature and I am the only person here that can field those calls, so a lot of them never get fielded as I am busy greasing a squeakier wheel. I've given continual thought to hiring a Tech for customer service, but frankly I can't find one that understands the things I need him to understand in order to deal with customers technical questions--it took me over 40 years to learn all this stuff (I started handloading when I was 12) and I see no way to duplicate myself here. So I focus on doing the things that make the biggest percentage of customers the happiest, realizing that i leave others out, but dont have much alternative.........and that is the ugly truth.

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    Tim,

    Would you care to share any trade secrets or share the fact that you have none. Any special powders used or just standard off the shelf powders.

    Also what type of test facility do you have, An Oehler model 43 system or a piezo crystal, copper crusher or transducer pressure measuring equipment? Just curious about the technology, I've run some of that in the past. I have only the 43 and strain gage system now. Do you test velocity with actual guns or a universal setup?

    I am only seeking general info I can honestly say I've never had a round of BB ammo fail in any way. I was given several boxes of it when in Fairbanks by folks who said it failed to fire in various guns and they worked in my guns. Caliber of 44 mag and 454 come to mind.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Are you saying I have had an issue with BB? If so that is not correct as I have never fired any of BB ammo and have never witnessed anyone else using BB. I have no opinion on BB ammo other than it's expensive but then so is most other commercial ammo. If the price was right ,I would try it and see for myself what all the noise is about. I will not discuss the issue I have with your friends at WWG as it would benefit no one.If any one has any BB they are afriad of or want to dump, I would be glad to try it in 38,357,41,44 or 454.

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    Folks,

    As I stated in my response to Chriso. This thread was started by Chriso significantly and in a telling way misrepresenting facts I wrote in an email to him yesterday. I wrote that email in response to Chriso's email to me. Since material facts of my email to CHriso have been misrepresented by Chriso in his starting post of this thread, I'm restating my request to Chriso to post my entire email to him and if you folks would like to get the entire context of our email discussion, Chriso needs to post his email to me, so everyone can see what in fact I was respnding to.

    Just as in the WWG post that brought this site to my attention, I am asking for the truth here. I want full disclosure and in turn I offer the same. So Chriso, post our mutual emails so that no one has to rely on your version of what I stated and no one has to rely on my version either. Fair enough? Until you do that, I am hesitant to continue with this thread. I want every one to see the truth versus what you posted in your starting post of this thread. thank you.

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    Member chriso's Avatar
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    Default Heres where I began to draw my conclusion...

    "Hey Chris, Perhaps you and I simply see things differently and nothing more, but I believe it is absolutely unethical to make a defaming post, without absolute proof. Your feelings toward Buffalo Bore ammo prove my point, as you've stated twice that you don't trust the ammo because of things you've read, posted by some local guys. I'D BE WILLING TO BET YOU MONEY THAT IF YOU HAD HEARD THE ACTUAL DISCUSSION BETWEEN ME AND THOSE GUYS, YOU'D HAVE SIDED WITH ME"

    So I thought I'd ask the guys from the posts I was able to find without spending too much time on it (I'm a busy guy too) and see if you were right, that I'd have sided with you...

    and you're correct, I misrepresented (unintentionally I might add, my mind coupled the other posts, your initial paragraph and the "3" and assumed that meant most of these guys hadnt contacted you with their issues) the stuff you wrote about the "3". I apologize... and post it here for the world to see and you to have your vindication.

    "To date, after thirteen years of making a lot of ammo, I've been contacted on three guns that have blown or cracked when firing BB ammo. So far, after investigating, two of the three were caused by bore obstructions, the third is still unknown, but I do believe we will figure it out. It is in my best interest to correct a bad load if I am making one, so I don't make frivolous excuses, or pass blame unless it is warranted, no matter what you may have read by someone who is angry on the internet."

    I actually wasnt trying to "dredge up" anything except maybe clarification, and should it prove to be the case that olks were getting thei issues cleared up and not closing the loop and telling the rest of us about it, then to get that out in the open too.I do offer my apology for connecting too many dots in your email, and for looking for more clarification for my own personal decision making process here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Are you saying I have had an issue with BB? If so that is not correct as I have never fired any of BB ammo and have never witnessed anyone else using BB. I have no opinion on BB ammo other than it's expensive but then so is most other commercial ammo. If the price was right ,I would try it and see for myself what all the noise is about. I will not discuss the issue I have with your friends at WWG as it would benefit no one.If any one has any BB they are afriad of or want to dump, I would be glad to try it in 38,357,41,44 or 454.
    I guess I owe you an apology too then, I sure read your posts differently when I searched out the history of BB on this forum. (obviously I've demonstrated I'm capable of misreading stuff, thanks for clearing that up for me)

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    Mr. Sundles,

    As an Alaskan consumer and and avid hand-loader, it isn't likely that I'll ever be in the market for factory hot-loads for my 460V. However, I like to stay informed on what's "out there" in case I find myself in need for whatever reason. I have to say, in this one forum alone BB isn't looking very good.

    However - I think it is very commendable of you to stand by your product and take the time to sign in here and make some attempt to correct a problem.

    There are too many different model weapons chambered in too many different calibers here claiming issues with your product to pass it off on the manufacturers of the weapons. Please take this into consideration.

    I am fully aware of the tendency for internet reports to be blown out of proportion, and I think we should give you the benefit of the doubt in that area. However, in light of the sheer volume of complaints I feel there is sufficient evidence that there is some issue, somewhere in your product line.

    I think if you are willing to address those problems, and spend some time helping your customers and admitting fault if indeed the fault is yours, you will see your business grow beyond your imagination. People who are "man enough" to admit a mistake and to put forth the effort to correct it are few and far between these days. If you are one of those people, I will be among the first in line to buy some BB ammo, even though I handload the vast majority of my own.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Chriso,

    Ok thanks for taking responsiblity and clearing that up. (you still did not post the entirety of our emials like I requested as there is more telling stuff in those emails)

    I am going to clear the misinformation up, as there have been some unanswered and unquestioned posts made on this forum regarding BB ammo. So I say bring it on, if any one out there feels they have been treated poorly by me or my products, lets hear it, but you gotta know, that if you make your case, I will make mine and this time the WHOLE story will be told instead of a small out of context peice of the story. DEAL?

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    AKsoldier,

    I frankly and completely disagree with you. I went back and looked the posts over too and I know the whole story to the posts. You dont. Without having ever met Murhpy, I saw several times where he defended BB ammo, not because he knows me or even likes me, but only because he has enough knowledge to understand some of the dynamics involved with firearms operating systems and internal ballistics. So, when he reads a post, he has some insight as to what may be going on.

    In this country you have to get a drivers license to drive, but to buy a gun all you have to do is turn 18. A lot of folks realy like guns and that is wonderful, but they make the purchase, which nomrally includes some ammo too, having no or little idea what they are getting into and when things dont go as expected, they want/need to lay blame and I've already admitted that I am very busy and I wont take the time to explain the same thing to the same person more than about twice and if they dont like what they heard or dont understand what they heard, they are generally unhappy. So, bring it on. Lets clear it up. Keep in mind that I am selling millions of rounds into this enviornment every year.

    I'm willing to bet you that a couple of these complainants, wont bring their case into the public view here. WHY???? Because when I tell the whole story, (which they already know) they will be exposed for only telling a partial story that made them look good at the time and thier original posts are still right here for all to read.They knew what they were doing when they made thier original complaining post. Context (whole story) can be everything.

    Perhaps I should have come here long ago and responded, but I do have a life and until recently it was not typing on this forum all night.....:-) So, here I am. Not running from the truth, but welcoming it, how about you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Sundles View Post
    l stated that with millions of rounds of ammo sold each year, only three customers had ever contacted me with "blown or cracked" guns.
    Obviously THESE 3 incidents are the most important to be aware of in regards to safety of the shooter (although a Failure to Fire could be detrimental in an emergency as well).

    Again, Tim, in the interest of the full truth and full disclosure would you elaborate about these 3 incidents?
    As you say, lets get to the whole story and let the truth be known.

    I am especially interested if any incidents were regarding .38special rounds, or materials used in your .38special rounds, but the story on all of these events would be beneficial to other users.
    You mentioned barrel obstructions in two cases...were these cases of Obstructions/blown cylinders caused by squib rounds?
    I know of many of your "current Buffalo Bore users" who would like to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Sundles View Post
    I saw several times where he defended BB ammo, not because he knows me or even likes me, but only because he has enough knowledge to understand some of the dynamics involved with firearms operating systems and internal ballistics. So, when he reads a post, he has some insight as to what may be going on.
    Well, You've got a pretty enlightened group here Tim. More so than your average shooting forum. Lets clear it all up. Please elaborate on the 3 "cracked/blown" incidents you mentioned for ALL of our peace of mind...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Sundles View Post
    I am Not running from the truth, but welcoming it, how about you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Sundles View Post
    AKsoldier,

    I frankly and completely disagree with you. I went back and looked the posts over too and I know the whole story to the posts. You dont. Without having ever met Murhpy, I saw several times where he defended BB ammo, not because he knows me or even likes me, but only because he has enough knowledge to understand some of the dynamics involved with firearms operating systems and internal ballistics. So, when he reads a post, he has some insight as to what may be going on.

    In this country you have to get a drivers license to drive, but to buy a gun all you have to do is turn 18. A lot of folks realy like guns and that is wonderful, but they make the purchase, which nomrally includes some ammo too, having no or little idea what they are getting into and when things dont go as expected, they want/need to lay blame and I've already admitted that I am very busy and I wont take the time to explain the same thing to the same person more than about twice and if they dont like what they heard or dont understand what they heard, they are generally unhappy. So, bring it on. Lets clear it up. Keep in mind that I am selling millions of rounds into this enviornment every year.

    I'm willing to bet you that a couple of these complainants, wont bring their case into the public view here. WHY???? Because when I tell the whole story, (which they already know) they will be exposed for only telling a partial story that made them look good at the time and thier original posts are still right here for all to read.They knew what they were doing when they made thier original complaining post. Context (whole story) can be everything.

    Perhaps I should have come here long ago and responded, but I do have a life and until recently it was not typing on this forum all night.....:-) So, here I am. Not running from the truth, but welcoming it, how about you?
    Then I am 100% convinced that you are wrong. Using your same argument, you don't know me from Adam. You have no clue as to my knowledge, or lack thereof, concerning firearms and ammunition, yet you have immediately discounted my response using assumptions.

    Quite frankly, that is not the character of a person I want loading ammo for me - particularly ammo riding the ragged edge of SAAMI pressures.

    Good luck to you sir - I'll neither buy your ammo, nor recommend it to my friends.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Arizona,

    I will wait for any potential complainants and at that point we will discuss in detail. If no one steps forward to discuss these things, then over time, I will tell the details of each incident for the edification of all, for it is very educational, but right now I'm waiting.

    If you want to get started on your own, go to www.buffalobore.com and click on "Technical Articles" on the home page and read the very short essay titled, "dangerous pure lead cowboy bullets" (I think that is the title) That short essay wll give you a hint about one such kaboom.

    Since you are concerned about 38 SPL, no none of the three incidents involved a 38 SPL Take care.

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    AKsoldier,

    If you have a specific complaint, bring it please. I cant deal in abstracts or unknowns.

    I gotta go to bed now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Sundles View Post
    AKsoldier,

    If you have a specific complaint, bring it please. I cant deal in abstracts or unknowns.

    I gotta go to bed now.
    You may not be able to, as a distributor. As a consumer however, I CAN. You would do well to take that into consideration.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Default Buffalo Bore not for me

    I remember when I first saw BB ammo about 12-13 years ago. I thought, "Wow, someone actually making ammo that takes is not watered down and anemic."

    I then saw 3 major malfunctions resulting from using this ammo. The first 2 malfunctions were bullet detonation in the magazine tube in Marlin Guide guns. Pretty impressive what those guns will survive and keep the shooter from harm. The third malfunction was when a good friend of mine was practicing some fast shooting with his 454 Super Redhawk. He would load up and then fire all the rounds in the pistol as fast as he could accurately pull the trigger and would frequently snap the hammer on fired rounds before e quit pulling the trigger. During one of these times a cartridge failed to fire the bullet with enough force to send it out the barrel, and my friend not realizing, pulled off another shot with a good round. the result was a bulged, split barrel and tweaked frame. I saw the letter he wrote and the response basically saying he should not have fired that last round and should have known something was wrong, sorry but we are not at fault.

    I have not heard of many problems over the past couple years now but BB ammo is not something I can put my faith it. It may be better now and the hottest thing going but if I need that I will just bring a bigger gun.

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    AK soldier,

    Gees I cant believe I'm still up....been serching this site. I'm going to pay for not getting any sleep tonight.

    Again, if you have secific compalint lets hear it. Thanks.

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