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Thread: While We're Talking about SAKO's....

  1. #1

    Default While We're Talking about SAKO's....

    Tell me what you think...

    In my search to find the cause and solution of inaccuracy of my problem child, M85 Finnlight 300 WSM, I made a careful inspection of the receiver and recoil lug toi see if I might be able to imporove the bedding and maybe pillar bed it. In doing so, I was dumbfounded to see that the M85 didn't have much of a recoil lug system at all.

    Here are some pictures. You will notice on the bottom of the receiver a small boss that protrudes from the botom of the receiver just aft of a side to side channel in the bottom of the receiver. This is where the front action screw screws into the receiver. This is also the recoil lug... or at least part of it. The rest of it is an "L" shaped peice of aluminum that is bedded down in the form fitted injection molded stock. The boss fit's into a slot milled into the the aluminum peice.



    Here is the Aluminum block and the slot that the boss (recoil lug) fits into...







  2. #2

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    The side to side channel in the bottom of the receiver (first photo) is a mystery to me and after some digging around and converstions I've had, I think it may have been part of a former recoil lug design that is no longer used in the newer Sako models? Maybe Murphy can shed some light on that? Other than that, it seems to serve absolutley no function or purpose.

    Here's a view of the stock action bed....








  3. #3

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    The stock itself is very rigid and stable for an injection molded plastic stock. I filed out the bolt handle channel to ensure the bolt handle wasn't touching the stock and I found that it seemed to have fibers in it... almost like fiberglass. When attempting to try and squeeze the sides of the mag opening together withboth hands, I couldn't get them to compress more than maybe a 16th of an inch. When I put a bipod on the rifle and set two 9 lb sand bags accross the barrel just in front of the forearm, I was still able to slide a dollar bill between the barrel and forearm. So for a plastic stock, it's quite stout.

    I've been considering pillar bedding it, but the front action screw set up, complete with aluminum block complicates that idea greatly.

    My guess it that the lack of accuracy is due to the recoil lug system and bedding and/or the barrel - may have just got a bad barrel???

    So whadya think? Is that recoil lug system messed up or what?

  4. #4
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    That little lug fits into the aluminum block and there is movement there. Bothe the lug to block and block to stock movement. It will benefit from proper bedding. I dislike that system but short cuts in manufacture and inferior materials seem to be the norm in all modern firearms. If you've ever seen the older Sako A-V lug and bedding system you can see why it is a superior rifle.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  5. #5

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    Well, in my setup, the aluminum lug is set in the stock very snug. It doesn't move at all. But there is slop where the boss fits in the slot in the aluminum lug and I do not have any idea how that can be bedded. I was thinking of having a piece milled that would replace the aluminum lug and would have a tennon that fit up in the channel of the reciever. That would amount to a $250 experiment. And there is little to no room to add any bedding compund without removing a lot of stock. The action fits so snug, that it is basically already bedded.

  6. #6
    hap
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    Montana
    "The side to side channel in the bottom of the receiver (first photo) is a mystery to me and after some digging around and converstions I've had, I think it may have been part of a former recoil lug design that is no longer used in the newer Sako models? Maybe Murphy can shed some light on that? Other than that, it seems to serve absolutley no function or purpose."

    I have worked on a number of these and there were two key steps in making them shoot... First the bedding block is permanently bedded in the stock. The action is then essentially skim-bedded to clean the details. The second important detail is ensuring the back of the aluminum piece is not impinging on the magazine box support.

    After skim bedding the action, the action screw holes are drilled a little oversized, exactly like any other rifle.

    If you had evidence of the bolt handle hitting the stock that should have been taken care of with bedding to move the action forward to where it should be. Unfortunately, just like fiberglass boats, the outer gel coat is waterproof... The inside, not so much. Those fibers allow wicking of water and in freeze-thaw cycling it will expand the damaged area... But very slowly. Cyano acrylate is the only sealer I have found that will really fix that exposed fibers problem.
    art

  7. #7
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Well, in my setup, the aluminum lug is set in the stock very snug. It doesn't move at all. But there is slop where the boss fits in the slot in the aluminum lug and I do not have any idea how that can be bedded. I was thinking of having a piece milled that would replace the aluminum lug and would have a tennon that fit up in the channel of the reciever. That would amount to a $250 experiment. And there is little to no room to add any bedding compund without removing a lot of stock. The action fits so snug, that it is basically already bedded.

    Depending on what you have for equipment, making an aluminum lug of significant size is not difficult and it can be done with woodworking tools. But that route has not really added much IME. I do feel in my gut it helps but cannot justify the relatively minor effort.
    art

  8. #8
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Injestion stocks have a bad record fo accuracy try this out fit for a better stock and have then bed the rifle after you getit back from the barrel/fitter and maker.

    http://www.shilen.com/pricesServices.html


    For stocks scroll down and find Sako.

    http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-st...ubnav=branch2f


    I could go on for hours about why recoil lugs are not a big as a problem as you might think as long as they are properly bedded. But guess what these folks do a great many of them and know what to do to take care of the problems. As allways the barrel in any factory rifle is the biggest single problem you are likely to have for accuracy. I've owned and seen many factory rifles and can only think of one that this was not a problem for accuracy. Not bad one out of thousands.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  9. #9

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    Thank you Murphy, Art and Big Al for your insight and advise.

    I really like this rilfe other than the accuracy problems. I like its feel and handling and its action is smooth as butter as well as the trigger. The fact that it cant shoot any better than a good slug gun is a disapointing frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    I have worked on a number of these and there were two key steps in making them shoot... First the bedding block is permanently bedded in the stock. The action is then essentially skim-bedded to clean the details. The second important detail is ensuring the back of the aluminum piece is not impinging on the magazine box support.

    After skim bedding the action, the action screw holes are drilled a little oversized, exactly like any other rifle.

    art

    So you are suggesting epoxying the aluminum block into the stock? And then skim bedding over top of it? How thick would the skim bed coat be? Wouldn't that cause less bite between the already small lug and the aluminum block?


    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    Depending on what you have for equipment, making an aluminum lug of significant size is not difficult and it can be done with woodworking tools. But that route has not really added much IME. I do feel in my gut it helps but cannot justify the relatively minor effort.
    art
    If I went this route, Rem recoil type lug, I would have it professionally done and in a new stock, probably from a McMillan blank. I've already talked with a good smith out of Sturgis SD who is a top craftsman when it comes to bedding actions. To do it in the factory stock would reqyuire the removal of a 1/4" thich bulkhead between the action bed (just foreward of the the aluminum block) and the forearm, as shown in the pictures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Injestion stocks have a bad record fo accuracy try this out fit for a better stock and have then bed the rifle after you getit back from the barrel/fitter and maker.

    http://www.shilen.com/pricesServices.html


    For stocks scroll down and find Sako.

    http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-st...ubnav=branch2f


    I could go on for hours about why recoil lugs are not a big as a problem as you might think as long as they are properly bedded. But guess what these folks do a great many of them and know what to do to take care of the problems. As allways the barrel in any factory rifle is the biggest single problem you are likely to have for accuracy. I've owned and seen many factory rifles and can only think of one that this was not a problem for accuracy. Not bad one out of thousands.
    As mentioned above, if I went with a new stock, I would probably get a Mcmillan blank and have a particular smith inlet and bed it (with pillars) and do a 700 type recoil lug conversion, which would be quite a price tag. And while I was at it I would just go ahead and get a blueprint done. If that didn't help, the last step would be a new custom barrel, probably about a #5 flutted contour. If I get a new barrel, I'll want the whole 9 yards anyway.

    Or..... I might sell it, but that might prove difficult the way it's shooting.

  10. #10
    hap
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    Yes, the lug is best bedded right in the stock. The skim bedding that follows is only as thick as needed to mate the lug and action perfectly. With the action liberally buttered with Johnson's Paste Wax just squeeze the action in and install the action screws to snug it in, but then back off a half turn or so on the screws to ensure the action is not stressed. There should be almost no epoxy between lug and action after curing.

    A Remington recoil lug is not the right answer, IMO. It would certainly work, but there is no need to go that drastic. Do a good job with the bedding... which you should be able to do yourself... Bedding is not rocket science and suggesting guru status for someone just for bedding is making it into something far bigger than it is...


    The lug I would make would key into the action slot and the screw boss to increase the lug to action contact area.
    art

  11. #11

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    I agree, for a simple bedding job, I could do it myself. But if I were to get a new stock I would get away from Sako's (or Beretta's) cost cutting, convoluted recoil lug design and go with the Rem lug style, and would have it professionally inletted, pillared and bedded.

    This guy takes bedding to a different level. His work makes you not want to put your rilfe back together and hide the action bedding.

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...uestion-52589/

  12. #12

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    I hope you can resolve the problem. Let us know what you do and if accuracy improved any on a consistent bases.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  13. #13
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    NesikaChad Did I hear his handle mentioned? No he is not cheap, but with out a barrel swap I think you will always be chasing your tail, Heck for that matter if you are going to use him I would let him do the barrel work, goodness he does have the tooling and machinery to get it right. His bedding looks to me like a work of art. I'll put money on the rifle will shoot after he works his magic on it.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  14. #14
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    I agree, for a simple bedding job, I could do it myself. But if I were to get a new stock I would get away from Sako's (or Beretta's) cost cutting, convoluted recoil lug design and go with the Rem lug style, and would have it professionally inletted, pillared and bedded.

    This guy takes bedding to a different level. His work makes you not want to put your rilfe back together and hide the action bedding.

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...uestion-52589/
    Sledgehammering flies... Bed the rifle properly and watch what happens... Sakos tend to have few accuracy issues when bedding is good. For just a few bucks you can bed the rifle properly and IME it settles most Sako issues. It is rare one that does not shoot.
    art

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    I hope you can resolve the problem. Let us know what you do and if accuracy improved any on a consistent bases.
    Thanks BT, I would like to get it shooting and maybe in 5 or 10 years it'll happen unless I stumble on to an easy fix in the mean time. My next step is to try pressure points on the barrel. First, right in front of the receiver then just above the sling swivel stud. That would be an easy fix if it worked. After that..... .... I'll keep ya posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    NesikaChad Did I hear his handle mentioned? No he is not cheap, but with out a barrel swap I think you will always be chasing your tail, Heck for that matter if you are going to use him I would let him do the barrel work, goodness he does have the tooling and machinery to get it right. His bedding looks to me like a work of art. I'll put money on the rifle will shoot after he works his magic on it.
    Big Al, you may very well be right - but I look at it this way... If I'm gonna go ahead and get a new custom barrel for it, I'm also going to do the custom stock, blueprint and whole 9 yards with it. So, I'll go ahead (if I haven't found a simpler cure first) and do the stock/recoil lug conversion first with the factory barrel and see how it does. It might save me $600.

    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    Sledgehammering flies... Bed the rifle properly and watch what happens... Sakos tend to have few accuracy issues when bedding is good. For just a few bucks you can bed the rifle properly and IME it settles most Sako issues. It is rare one that does not shoot.
    art
    I might try it, but I have a couple of other things to try first.

    Thank you all.

    -Mark

  16. #16
    hap
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    Mark
    "Quote:
    Originally Posted by hap
    Sledgehammering flies... Bed the rifle properly and watch what happens... Sakos tend to have few accuracy issues when bedding is good. For just a few bucks you can bed the rifle properly and IME it settles most Sako issues. It is rare one that does not shoot.
    art


    I might try it, but I have a couple of other things to try first."

    IME&O there is nothing you can do for less money and effort than a proper bedding job. It should take less time than carefully reloading a couple boxes of test ammo, and cost less than the primers you would use.
    YMMV
    art

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    Mark
    "Quote:
    Originally Posted by hap
    Sledgehammering flies... Bed the rifle properly and watch what happens... Sakos tend to have few accuracy issues when bedding is good. For just a few bucks you can bed the rifle properly and IME it settles most Sako issues. It is rare one that does not shoot.
    art

    I might try it, but I have a couple of other things to try first."

    IME&O there is nothing you can do for less money and effort than a proper bedding job. It should take less time than carefully reloading a couple boxes of test ammo, and cost less than the primers you would use.
    YMMV
    art
    First I'll try pressure points on the barrel, then I may have a new lug machined that would fit into the slot on the bottom of the reciever. Then I'll try bedding.

    Thanks,

    Mark

  18. #18
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    First I'll try pressure points on the barrel, then I may have a new lug machined that would fit into the slot on the bottom of the reciever. Then I'll try bedding.

    Thanks,

    Mark
    Mark
    Your game, your ball, but exactly opposite the route I would use. If you have action issues the pressure points will not cure them. You may improve your results, but there will be no guarantee it will be stable.
    art

  19. #19

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    Art,

    Here's the way I see it. Experimenting with pressure points is temporary and can be undone. Bedding will be permenant. At worst, if it get no improvement, I can go back to square one and try something else like bedding, and I've used up maybe 10 or 20 rounds, and I've learned something in the process. I can also try the two different lugs to see which shoots better then bed the best one permanantly if I decide to bed it. I'm no hurry. I've got a couple of rifles that shoot well and can hunt with.

    -Mark

  20. #20
    hap
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    Mark
    I have only been building stocks for over 40 years and have only played with hundreds of rifles, I am sure your way is better...

    Or not...

    Bedding is anything but permanent. I suspect you are concerned about anchoring the lug you already dislike... 15 minutes and a heat gun will remove the bedded lug without damage to the stock.

    Bedding is always the first step with anyone concerned about accuracy. No serious shooter would spend any time on a troublesome rifle without bedding... Especially when the signs already point to bedding issues...

    Wasting time and materials on halfway fixes with marginal prospects of success versus the known best way, with the cheapest fix and the highest probability of success should be an easy choice.

    In short, IME, your analysis is flawed.
    art

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