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Thread: 460 Rowland range report

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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    Default 460 Rowland range report

    Few months ago, picked up a WWG converted XD45 5" Tactical 460 Rowland. First trip to range with it found some reliability issues, a few minutes back in the WWG shop for some spring adjustments, and all is well.

    I loaded up 3 different combinations, in addition to the Cor-Bon factory ammo for comparison:

    Factory:

    230 FMJRN
    1250 fps
    very controllable, about 5" groups at 15 yards off hand (not thoroughly impressed with accuracy, but is good enough for my purposes--- the XD doesn't have the smoothest trigger in the world either)

    200gr FMJ truncated cone:

    13.8 gr Longshot
    1465 avg fps
    Hard on hands, mild pressure signs, loaded to max saami length, and truncated cone design hung up in mag with more than 5 rounds in it.

    250 gr Hunter's Supply hard cast lead Flat Nose

    9.7gr Longshot
    1160 avg fps
    Good function, occasional flattened primer, easy to shoot

    260 gr Speer Uni-Cor JHP

    9.0 gr Longshot
    1055 avg fps
    Good function, felt like mildest load, no pressure signs






    A few other notes, I've been cautioned by Johnny Rowland and others that once a round has been chambered, it needs to be shot- repeated chambering of the same round can push the bullet deeper in the case, causing higher pressure. While dropping a loaded cartridge into the chamber, vs an empty brass, I noticed that the bullet touched the lands before the rim reached the end of the chamber. I think that this is because the 460 Rowland chamber is made by deepening the 45 ACP chamber by 1/16 of an inch, therefore removing any throat that was once there. I don't really know for sure, but this makes sense to me.

    Also, any thoughts on what combo of what I've loaded that you would use as a wilderness protection load? I don't think the 200gr TC would be built strong enough or penetrate deep enough. The 250 gr flat nose feels really good to shoot, and should be hard enough (16 BHN) to hold together. The 260 gr JHP is a hollowpoint, which I tend to shy away from for penetration purposes. What do you all think?

  2. #2
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    A few other notes, I've been cautioned by Johnny Rowland and others that once a round has been chambered, it needs to be shot- repeated chambering of the same round can push the bullet deeper in the case, causing higher pressure.
    I posted on this in the other thread, but I'll throw it up here...

    Was doing some reading and on another forum, a member bought a CCG conversion kit and apparently there was this warning in the kit:

    If you load a round into the chamber....
    • Shoot it
    • Dispose of it
    A possible consequence of rechambering the same round multiple times is shortening the overall length of the ammunition to potentially dangerous pressure levels.

    The member took a photo of the once-chambered round....note the bullet setback


    This in a Colt 1911 conversion...

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    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    I will stick with the 10mm. The .460 is a cool concept, but seems to finicky with the problem stated. Plus ammo is hard to get. If you handload, there again it is finicky.

    I chamber a round almost always, unload it sometimes. So just seems like a hassel and major problem with the .460 rowland.

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    IMO that is poorly made ammunition. It should be crimped better or sealed, but I will not be convinced that that amount of setback is a product of design.

  5. #5

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    I question what is going to happen to the first round in the magazine after enduring heavy recoil for 12 rounds.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfoot View Post
    I question what is going to happen to the first round in the magazine after enduring heavy recoil for 12 rounds.

    I don't think it would be an issue, since I have shot an entire magazine of each load through the chrony. There was no appreciable difference between bullets at the top or the bottom. The ONLY exception to that was the first round of the session was a 200 gr TC, and it shot 1426 fps, while the following shots were:

    1464
    1469
    1463
    1471
    1469
    *stopped to fix malfunction- bullets hung in mag*
    1465
    1470
    1469
    1466
    1470
    1462
    1468

    With the 250 LFP, the numbers were:

    1160
    1157
    1160
    1163
    1166
    1152
    1162
    1155
    1156
    1156
    1154
    1155

    I only shot 6 of the 260 gr Speers

    1064
    1053
    1069
    1049
    1040
    1045

    So, that being said, I think there's something else involved.... also, I can't say it really bothers me, since the only time I'm going to unload it is when I shoot it, so unloading the first round will be easy.

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    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    You mentioned a few spring adjustments...what needed changing? I just got my .460 XD and the first trip to the range left me wondering if the rates were correct. I had four FTF (bullet nose-dived in magazine) with the Rowland ammo, but none with the 45 ACP. I also notice significant firing-pin drag on the spent cases, which makes me wonder if the recoil spring is too light or it's just the nature of the beast.
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    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    I posted on this in the other thread, but I'll throw it up here...

    Was doing some reading and on another forum, a member bought a CCG conversion kit and apparently there was this warning in the kit:

    If you load a round into the chamber....
    • Shoot it
    • Dispose of it

    A possible consequence of rechambering the same round multiple times is shortening the overall length of the ammunition to potentially dangerous pressure levels.

    The member took a photo of the once-chambered round....note the bullet setback


    This in a Colt 1911 conversion...
    Several thoughts here:

    1) My XD does not do this on the first chambering. I worked an entire magazine through the gun manually and there was no difference in OAL from the non-chambered ammo.

    2) ALL my autoloaders do this to one degree or another over time. If I frequently clear my 1006, it will push a bullet back far enough to be visible to the eye over the course of a month or so. My Kahr P-40 does the same, and as the spring rate is a bit stiffer, it's slightly worse.

    3) I've found if I don't just hit the slide release, it doesn't happen nearly as fast. I've got a 10mm Silvertip that's been chambered and cleared at least 50 times, and there's no length difference. Simply grab the slide, pull it backward and start it forward until the bullet clears the feed ramp, then let it go. The only time I have problems with this method is with my P3AT if it's very dirty, and then I just have to give a little forward nudge to finish locking up.

    Another thing I've been thinking about ever since the original comments about 460 setback was the old-school bayonet crimp. Quick, simple, easy and effective. If I had a gun that was problematic with setback, I think it'd be preferred to throwing away a round of ammo on a regular basis...

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    Diesel,

    Of the 16 recovered cases in my crappy iphone pic, my primers pretty much all look like yours from my XD as well. I haven't had any FTFs though, with either ACP or .460.
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    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaustin View Post
    Diesel,

    Of the 16 recovered cases in my crappy iphone pic, my primers pretty much all look like yours from my XD as well. I haven't had any FTFs though, with either ACP or .460.
    Pretty much identical. I'm thinking the recoil spring isn't strong enough, and the firing pin is still forward when the bbl drops out of battery. No worries about puncturing the primer yet, but the firing pin will wear and eventually it'll be sharp and pierce primers, or it'll just break. I'm thinking a trip back to WWG for a slightly stronger recoil spring and firing pin spring might be in order...

    A heavier recoil spring by itself might solve the problem, and in slowing the slide down a bit might also fix my FTF. I like a balanced approach though, and if I add rate to one I like to do the same with the other...

    On a side note: Did you try to shoot factory 45ACP through the Rowland conversion? I couldn't believe they worked without a problem, even cycling the slide as fast as I could pull the trigger. I guess in hindsight that could have been an indicator there might be problem with the Rowland spring rate

  11. #11

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    Any word on this yet???
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    Haven't had a chance to call WWG yet and see what they say. I don't have the spring package in front of me, but I believe it's a 20lb and the factory spring is 18lb. There is a firing-pin spring in the bag, but I don't know if it's the factory spring or part of the spring kit from Wolff. I'm thinking a 24lb or 25lb recoil spring is probably right for the Rowland in my gun. The fact that it shoots the 45ACP without a problem concerns me.

    Maybe Ken will weigh-in here with his thoughts but if not, I'll update after I talk to them probably Wednesday or Thursday.

  13. #13
    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    The upgraded spring is a 20lb Wolff. Factory is 18lb.

  14. #14

    Default heavier springs

    Had this same firing pin drag on primers when loading an LAR Grizzly to max loads. Signs of higher pressure unlocking the slide too early. To continue shooting may cause damage to the firing pin/breach face, and possibly ruptured primer. You guys are correct though- a heavier recoil spring and heavy duty firing pin return spring solved my problem immediately.

  15. #15
    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    The adjustments made on the springs were the ejector and the recoil spring had some excess clipped off "i think". I have had no more ftf's but i do have firing pin drag. I too think it needs a stronger spring, but neither wolff, nor anyone else within the reaches of google make stronger than 20 lbs. When i called wolff, they said they would not make a heavier spring for me.

  16. #16

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    So does this mean the conversion is not workable?
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

  17. #17
    Member Diesel Nut's Avatar
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    I think this is the answer:

    http://shop.springerprecision.com/pr...4&categoryId=5

    It replaces the factory guide rod with one that is compatible with 1911 springs. A quick check of 1911 springs shows rates all the way up to 28lbs, which should be sufficient.

    I've got to look at the replacement guide rod I got with the kit as it may already work with 1911 springs, but in any event, I'm determined to make this work.

  18. #18

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    I'd hate to spend money on a conversion, only to have to research myself and spend more money to make it work.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    I dont know if the Kid is seeing that firing pin "drag" as a major problem. He will be weighing in once he gets all the tasks he has done.

    Jims 1911 with a 6 inch barrel shows primer drag and he has a ton of rounds through it.

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    Default .460 Rowland

    Don't post much so hope this works.

    I had a problem with case drag and primer cutting/gouging of the cases by the firing pin in a 1911 conversion. The pistol went back to Clark as they knew right off the bat what was going on.

    The old firing pin was removed, a new firing pin bushing installed and a .38 super firing pin installed. All of the problems have went away.

    Clark said about 1 in 10 1911 pistols have this problem.

    222R

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