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Thread: Recoil and stock angles

  1. #1
    Member hntr's Avatar
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    Default Recoil and stock angles

    How does the angle of the recoil pad in relation to the comb of the stock effect felt recoil? I had a HS precision stock on my rifle and the felt recoil was reduced from the factory stock. I thought that the recoil pad was 90 degrees to the comb.

    I traded it in for a lighter stock that does have the recoil pad (Limbsaver) 90 degrees off of the comb but the felt recoil is much higher. I also shorteded the length of pull 1/4 inch less than my measured LOP (turned out to be 12 3/4) so it would be easier to cycle when wearing hunting cloths, so the LOP is less than that of the HS precision.

    So if the angle is more than 90 degrees does it deflect the muzzle up and reduce felt recoil?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    hap
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    You are asking about a variable with insufficient information.

    The bore axis is where the energy is directed. If the comb is parallel and the recoil pad is at a right angle there will be some muzzle climb if the rifle is moved.

    The stock has too many different factors to consider any single variable the total answer. In general, a little heel is sometimes left on to better the "hang" in offhand shooting. Sometimes it is reversed so the stock comes up without catching on clothing.

    Cast is also important if you need to reduce felt recoil. It translates a little energy sideways and that reduces felt recoil usually.

    I suspect you used a rule of thumb like forearm length to determine LOP? You can absolutely dismiss that notion. While it may end up being close there is absolutely no connection between arm length and LOP. None, never.

    In general a shorter stock is better than a too long stock, especially when extra clothes are to be worn.
    art

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    Member hntr's Avatar
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    Default Thanks Art

    Just trying to figure out why this stock seems to kick so much harder even with the limbsaver recoil pad. It is about a pound and lighter so that may have some effect.

    Yes I did use the rule of thumb as you stated to measure LOP.

  4. #4
    hap
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    A pound lighter makes a huge difference. Stock geometry is fairly straight forward, but weight trumps shape for starters.

    If the rule of thumb is true on LOP I literally need nearly 17"! I actually need a very ordinary length. The elbow is a huge adjustment device that allows any reasonable length arm to work with any stock. It is 100% the geometry involved in putting the eye in the right spot. Shoulder bulk, neck length, stock shape, and jowl size all contribute.
    art

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    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    Default

    Hap, do you know anyone in Anchorage or Alaska who can fit a stock properly? I know that shotgunners go on and on about fit, but for rifle shooters it's, "elbow to thumb is your lop".

    I have short arms and standard stocks always feel too short for me.

    I once read an article by David Tubb where he claimed he could fit a stock so well to a person that they could hit a ten inch target at 200 yards without sights of any kind.

    I want that kind of stock fit!

  6. #6
    hap
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    While I have tremendous respect for Tubbs as a shooter and lots of other things... If he said that I would be extremely skeptical. There are lots of people that cannot do that with a scoped rifle! Of course they shoot MOA groups every time on the internet!

    And every rifle they have is twice that good... "If I do my part."

    Getting a wood stock that fits is not rocket science. getting a wood stock that fits AND reduces recoil takes a touch more doing, but it is still fairly direct.

    If LOP is the biggest concern you are missing much of what goes into stock design. As I noted earlier I use stocks with very close to average LOP, despite ridiculously long arms and being 6'4". My shoulders are narrower than average and it all works out.
    art

    PM in a second

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    Quote Originally Posted by hntr View Post
    How does the angle of the recoil pad in relation to the comb of the stock effect felt recoil? I had a HS precision stock on my rifle and the felt recoil was reduced from the factory stock. I thought that the recoil pad was 90 degrees to the comb.

    I traded it in for a lighter stock that does have the recoil pad (Limbsaver) 90 degrees off of the comb but the felt recoil is much higher. I also shorteded the length of pull 1/4 inch less than my measured LOP (turned out to be 12 3/4) so it would be easier to cycle when wearing hunting cloths, so the LOP is less than that of the HS precision.

    So if the angle is more than 90 degrees does it deflect the muzzle up and reduce felt recoil?

    Thanks
    You may be asking about something called "Pitch", in a rifle stock. Read down to where it talks about it.

    http://members.aye.net/~bspen/fit.html

    Smitty of the North
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  8. #8
    hap
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    Smitty
    Precious few correct statements in that link, including the definition of pitch.

    He also missed on drop at comb, "trigger pull", the why of cast-off, and lots of other stuff.
    art

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    Smitty
    Precious few correct statements in that link, including the definition of pitch.

    He also missed on drop at comb, "trigger pull", the why of cast-off, and lots of other stuff.
    art
    Excuse Me
    Smitty of the North
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  10. #10
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Excuse Me
    Smitty of the North

    Not criticizing your thought or action, just the fact the link contains incorrect information. You obviously do not know how to answer the question and Google turned into your enemy.

    Leaving the bad information posted there to stand, for me, might imply I agreed. It also disagrees in parts with what I stated.

    It is too broad for me to argue every point, but there is about as much wrong as right. Would happily discuss it item by item if you support any of it.

    No ill will intended nor taken.
    art

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    The man asked,,,, “How does the angle of the recoil pad in relation to the comb of the stock effect felt recoil?”

    You, didn’t answer his question. You didn’t even mention “pitch”. I suggest you read what you posted, and see if there is anything of value there.

    It was an interesting question and one that I am also interested in, having read something about it recently, so I looked it up, and passed it on to the Forum.

    The web page explains “pitch” in a way that most of us can understand. But, you may have been thinking about horseshoes.

    Obviously, you did criticize me by implying that I did something improper. I gather, from reading some of your other posts, that this is not uncommon with you.

    Smitty of the North
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  12. #12
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    The man asked,,,, “How does the angle of the recoil pad in relation to the comb of the stock effect felt recoil?”

    You, didn’t answer his question. You didn’t even mention “pitch”. I suggest you read what you posted, and see if there is anything of value there.

    It was an interesting question and one that I am also interested in, having read something about it recently, so I looked it up, and passed it on to the Forum.

    The web page explains “pitch” in a way that most of us can understand. But, you may have been thinking about horseshoes.

    Obviously, you did criticize me by implying that I did something improper. I gather, from reading some of your other posts, that this is not uncommon with you.

    Smitty of the North
    Smitty
    I am sorry you know so little about stock geometry that my answer did not get you up to speed. If you ahd the slightest basis you would see I answered the question without using "pitch". The reason I did not/do not use "pitch" is fairly complex and involves three dimensions in two locations. Having built stocks for over 40 years I have more than passing familiarity with stock geometry.

    The poseur in your link is clueless. He explains pitch so you can understand it... Yet his definition is wrong. Has he done you a favor?

    As for something of value, I suggest anyone with a clue... even a tenuous one... would get something out of the post. Read O'Connor's "Rifle" book to start and then get back with us...

    As for your snide comment about pitching horseshoes... And calling me rude... You just read about it and now you know it all? And yet you attack me because you do not follow the points I made? And I am rude?

    I am direct and do not suffer fools, period.

    Sorry you took my direct statements of fact about the bogus link you posted personally. But please reread the previous paragraph.
    art

  13. #13
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Applying a little emery cloth to the rough spots-

    Hi guys,

    I seldom write in here, mostly because I'm ignorant of the subject matter. But it strikes me that there are some pretty smart folks hereabouts. I really appreciate what you all are doing to help each other out.

    Some of this is getting a little pointed, though. Could we keep it focused on the issues and not the people posting?

    Thanks!

    Some time I need to hit you guys up for some answers on recoil reduction on my .375. It's a Winchester Model 70 (stainless), with a 20" barrel and a synthetic light-weight stock. I forget the brand of the stock, but I could dig it up somewhere if necessary. Anyway I had shoulder surgery a while back (right shoulder, and I'm right-handed). I shot the rifle a few months ago and it rattled me a bit harder than it should have. I don't need to be re-injuring myself. Anyway, I'll try to get with you guys for some tips later. I don't want to hijack this great thread. If you want to PM some ideas to me, that's good too.

    Thanks again-

    Take care,

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Hi guys,

    Some of this is getting a little pointed, though. Could we keep it focused on the issues and not the people posting?

    Thanks!
    -Mike
    No problem. I can't talk to the guy anyway.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  15. #15
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Hi guys,

    I seldom write in here, mostly because I'm ignorant of the subject matter. But it strikes me that there are some pretty smart folks hereabouts. I really appreciate what you all are doing to help each other out.

    Some of this is getting a little pointed, though. Could we keep it focused on the issues and not the people posting?

    Thanks!

    Some time I need to hit you guys up for some answers on recoil reduction on my .375. It's a Winchester Model 70 (stainless), with a 20" barrel and a synthetic light-weight stock. I forget the brand of the stock, but I could dig it up somewhere if necessary. Anyway I had shoulder surgery a while back (right shoulder, and I'm right-handed). I shot the rifle a few months ago and it rattled me a bit harder than it should have. I don't need to be re-injuring myself. Anyway, I'll try to get with you guys for some tips later. I don't want to hijack this great thread. If you want to PM some ideas to me, that's good too.

    Thanks again-

    Take care,

    -Mike

    Mike
    Pretty hard to do much with a cast piece of plastic/fiberglass/whatever... With wood it can be bent and modified any number of ways. Synthetics require a whole different approach and there is no easy way to get it done.

    Cast is most important for taming recoil. My 375AI has 5/16" cast-on at the heel and 1/4" at the toe. Visualize a slight bend at the wrist that points the recoil pad closer to a right-handed shooter's shoulder.

    Under recoil the rifle rotates a bit to the side. The translation spills a bunch of energy the shoulder would have had to absorb. My 375AI compared to a Charlie Sisk custom on a McMillan of almost exactly equal weight shooting 270gr X bullets (mine at a slight bit more speed) recoil so incredibly differently it is an eye-opener.

    Friends shot several boxes of my ammo with my rifle at rocks on a Kodiak beach in disbelief... Cost a bit to teach them that lesson. Recoil management really needs to start with the build. Bending wood is a pain and bending plastic is likely impossible.
    art

  16. #16
    Member hntr's Avatar
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    Default Stock angles

    The reason I was asking about "pitch" is because of how the European express rifle stocks appear to have an angled pitch. I figured that they had it that way for a reason and maybe that was recoil.

  17. #17
    hap
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    hntr
    Because of the European shooting style they have a little different set of stock parameters and the style puts a lot of emphasis on how the rifle "hangs" on the shoulder.

    The comb to butt angle is not the same as pitch and is not a huge influence on recoil control.
    art

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    Quote Originally Posted by hntr View Post
    The reason I was asking about "pitch" is because of how the European express rifle stocks appear to have an angled pitch. I figured that they had it that way for a reason and maybe that was recoil.
    I thought it was a reasonable question, and deserved a reasonable answer. After the response you got from the horse-shoe man, I just wanted to help.

    As the article said, "Pitch is simply defined as the angle of the butt to the line of sight."

    It effects how well the butt stays on your shoulder. If it moves, I can see how it might effect how a rifle feels in recoil.

    I don't think either of us are at fault here.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
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  19. #19
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I thought it was a reasonable question, and deserved a reasonable answer. After the response you got from the horse-shoe man, I just wanted to help.

    As the article said, "Pitch is simply defined as the angle of the butt to the line of sight."

    It effects how well the butt stays on your shoulder. If it moves, I can see how it might effect how a rifle feels in recoil.

    I don't think either of us are at fault here.

    Smitty of the North
    Smitty
    Because Mike asked so nicely I will let your obvious taunt slide. Keep it up and expect no quarter.

    Wanting to help is a fine thing, but is giving wrong advice really helping? Just asking.

    Pitch is measured from the bore axis. Examples of why that is important include trap guns with elevated ribs to point the barrel up a bit more; long-range rifles with canted rails to get the cross-hairs into the realm of long range pointing; Tacticool mounting with grossly elevated scopes; Differences induced by bull barrels versus fast tapers, versus muzzle attachments which artificially increase muzzle size.
    art

  20. #20
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    Default Let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    Smitty
    Because Mike asked so nicely I will let your obvious taunt slide. Keep it up and expect no quarter.

    Wanting to help is a fine thing, but is giving wrong advice really helping? Just asking.

    Pitch is measured from the bore axis. Examples of why that is important include trap guns with elevated ribs to point the barrel up a bit more; long-range rifles with canted rails to get the cross-hairs into the realm of long range pointing; Tacticool mounting with grossly elevated scopes; Differences induced by bull barrels versus fast tapers, versus muzzle attachments which artificially increase muzzle size.
    art
    hap:
    It wasn't "advice". It was information from the website.

    I have no reason to believe that it is incorrect, other than your word, which at the moment, I'm not the least inclined to accept.

    IF, it was wrong it wasn't/isn't apparent. And you were out of line by jumping on me. For the horrible crime you call "giving the wrong advice".

    I dunno why it is so upsetting when you find something that you don't agree with. I can only speculate.

    I'm not impressed with your threats, like "expect no quarter" etc.

    Listen, I just felt that you were attempting to browbeat me, and I reacted with a joke. I thought you would get the message. I had no idea you were so sensitive, and wanted to be confrontational.

    Why not, just enjoy the forum like the most of us do? We can let this go.

    Now, I've responded with what I hope is my Last Word on this. If you come back with more of the same, about how ignorant I am or something to that effect. My intention is to ignore it.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

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