Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 57

Thread: Handloads for self defense?

  1. #1
    New member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    5,417

    Question Handloads for self defense?

    We started to talk about this in another thread but it should be it's own discussion.

    I've heard the argument that one should not use handloaded ammo for personal protection in case you find yourself in court after using your firearm LEGALLY in self defense. I'm talking legal carry, defense of life use of deadly force. That you might be portrayed as some bloodthirsty type who made his own ammo just for killing people, etc.

    And then there is the argument that factory ammo is more reliable.

    I'm not so sure I agree with first one but I can maybe see the logic in the second one but, I, and many others load our own for bear protection where your life could depend on your ammo going bang.

    At this point I find myself with factory ammo in my carry gun just cuz I have some. But, I load my own for my hunting and potential bear protection rounds and can load for my carry gun as well.

    Comments, opinions, real life experiences?

  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    Awsooo!!! it is NOT the gun that kills people but the bullet arguement.

    well how about i reload IN CASE i have to use it on some one argument...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  3. #3
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Valdez, Alaska
    Posts
    4,402

    Wink Don't know

    I don't know how anyone can sue you for using reloads on people. It should never the intent of a reasonable person to reload just for humans. My loads are for animals. Just because some stupid person forced me to make a decision to defend myself or my family is his problem. I just did not have the time to go to the store for "Factory" ammunition.

    Vietnam - June 70 - Feb. 72
    Cancer from Agent Orange - Aug. 25th 2012
    Cancer Survivor - Dec. 14th 2012

  4. #4
    New member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    5,417

    Default

    Ya, I fail to see the difference (from a legal perspective) between buying 38spc 125gr +p hp's for my snubby versus loading 158gr swchp's myself. My intent is still the same... To have a weapon to defend myself against bodily harm, to perhaps have to shoot someone in self defense. Not an ammo purchase or hand load for target practice. Heck, that's the purpose of the snubby! Not to target shoot or hunt. But in this day and age any lawyer can try to argue anything they want in court. I wonder if it's ever been successfully done.

    I bring this up because I have personally talked to people who absolutely will not put handloads in their personal carry handguns for fear of some sort of legal action against them if they ever had to shoot someone with them.

    What about the issue of reliability?? store bought versus homegrown?

  5. #5

    Default

    When I took my concealed carry class the instructor and lawyer advised against using handloads. They even went so far as to say if you handload at all your subject to the "gun nut" label a lawyer would put on you. Advice noted, but I pack handloads.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    North Pole, AK
    Posts
    245

    Default

    I don't have a real opinion on this, but i think it started with Massad Ayoob.

    As an "expert witness" in defensive shootings, Massad has talked about using ammo from the same lot to prove points (CSI type stuff) re: distance from gun to the bad guy, etc. He infers that commercial ammo is kind of an "unbiased" form of data.

    Please don't shoot the messenger. Massad is a bit of a polarizing personality and I won't give my opinion on him. There is a LOT more to his and other arguments re: using commercial ammo. I just ATTEMPTED to do the thumb nail sketch.

  7. #7
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    I just stick to the ‘judged by 12 or carried by 6’ idea. If I’m dead what does it matter if I used factory ammo or not? If I’m alive in jail I still have a chance! This tells me to have the best tools I can have so I may live through the fight . . . then I will worry about the legal issues later if I make it that far. I can tell you first hand when you are being shot at legal issues don’t mean squat, but living sure dose.

    Like Snid says just that you have a J frame or a compact auto and loaded it with +p would be the exact same thing. ‘He bought a Saturday night special and loaded it with extra powerful ammo just to kill my client!’ Every court case is different and any choice you make ahead of time you think will help in court also has the potential to sink you. Hell even the fact that we are talking about it could be twisted to show an intent to circumvent the intent of the law.

    I trust my ammo to save my life more than any mass produced factory ammo so that’s what I use, that’s all. My intent is liveing not killing and it's not that hard to show that to a jury if it's true.

    The whole thing, I believe goes back to police issue ammo being required in LEO weapons and the rational for that being misunderstood. PDs want to have everything uniform across the force, they want ammo to have ‘X’ power, ‘X’ bullet, be consistent, and all the same so they issue it. I think this started a host of these myths about they wont let cops use hand loads so they must be unreliable. Or that cop ammo is the best so that’s what I want and so on.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  8. #8
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 1buba View Post
    I don't have a real opinion on this, but i think it started with Massad Ayoob.

    As an "expert witness" in defensive shootings, Massad has talked about using ammo from the same lot to prove points (CSI type stuff) re: distance from gun to the bad guy, etc. He infers that commercial ammo is kind of an "unbiased" form of data.

    Please don't shoot the messenger. Massad is a bit of a polarizing personality and I won't give my opinion on him. There is a LOT more to his and other arguments re: using commercial ammo. I just ATTEMPTED to do the thumb nail sketch.
    True but in discovery you will know what they are up too and be able pick it apart quite nicely . . . assuming you lived through the attach in the first place.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    welfare state of Alaska
    Posts
    5,153

    Default Urbam Myth

    I spent some time reading up on the subject of handloads for self defense.

    Massad was one of the first to bring the subject up referring to only two cases one of which wasn't even self defense. When he was questioned he could not cite any additional cases - his referenced cases were years ago.

    From what I can find one one else has ever found a case where the question of handloads in self defense has ever been an issue. It appears to be another urban myth that just keeps getting repeated as fact.

    My theory is to use a big enough caliber where the bullet isn't even an issue i.e. a .44 Mag. like the 329PD. Multiple hits in a vital area is another must; a dead perp can't testify against you.

    In my concealed carry class in TX years ago the instruction wouldn't record your score on the shooting test - said it may be an issue if you scored very good or barely passed. He couldn't cite a case however where it had ever been an issue or brought up in court.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1buba View Post
    I don't have a real opinion on this, but i think it started with Massad Ayoob.

    As an "expert witness" in defensive shootings, Massad has talked about using ammo from the same lot to prove points (CSI type stuff) re: distance from gun to the bad guy, etc. He infers that commercial ammo is kind of an "unbiased" form of data.

    Please don't shoot the messenger. Massad is a bit of a polarizing personality and I won't give my opinion on him. There is a LOT more to his and other arguments re: using commercial ammo. I just ATTEMPTED to do the thumb nail sketch.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  10. #10
    New member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    5,417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post

    ...My intent is liveing not killing....
    Bingo, that's it right there... well put.

  11. #11
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    then there was the case in the states with the hiker armed with the 10mm for bear protection ended up shooting some guy with dogs...


    I don't remember how it ended.. but the issue was he was over armed for man assault and carrying cannons in the woods. someone will always make an issue of any self defense method. to me the end result is the same if i hand load, factory load or crack them in the head with a log.. i am aiming for the same spot.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  12. #12
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,600

    Default

    With todays courts people will sue you no matter what you use. With factory they will say he used the same bullets police use.He thinks he is a cop with the right to take law into his own hands ya da yada. Never had a reload not work but have had a few factory fail

  13. #13
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    It could also be argued in court (and has been) that hollow point or some super defensive factory loads were used to increase the lethality of the gun/ammo. Horse crap!! Using less leathal ammo will make the efforts of bad guys more lethal. I'll take my 12 over 6 anytime. One good way for bad guys to avoid being shot, with factory or handloads, is to steer clear of yours truly when they commit their dirty deeds. I think we should still build gallows for murderers so I'm not going to go easy on some sorry SOB bent on delivering bodily harm to my self or anyone near me. Other than that, some folks think I'm a nice guy.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Between two lakes in Alaska
    Posts
    952

    Default

    Vince: as I remember the 10mm vs dog case the good guy "won" the court case. Seems like it was a long and nasty legal fight.

    We had a local good guy shoot a bad guy breaking into his car. Good guy "won" in court...but lost his home and all his savings in paying for "justice". I think this is some of what Ayoob is trying to get across...You may "win" but it may cost you a lot, and if you run out of $ first you may have to give up. Don't give them, either the legal system or the estate of the bad guy, any excusses to come after you.

    My town handguns carry factory rounds, my woods handguns mostly carry handloads...many of them haven't fired a factory round outside the factory.

  15. #15
    Member Bullelkklr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    4,838

    Default special rounds

    I load up people poppers. When I am outside they are standard rounds with copper jacketed bullets. When I am in my house I down load them and use fairly soft lead in them. People are easy to kill - or so I have heard. I don't want to shoot through my house and accidentally hurt a neighbor so I load them fairly light for indoor self protection. Then again - my bigger pistola is next to the little pistola so I spose it would matter which one I grabbed first.

    I am with Murphy - some fast trials followed by a quick publicly broadcasted hangings might stop some of the BS that we hear about in the news.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    North Pole, AK
    Posts
    245

    Default

    Since folks are chiming in, i will add my impressions.

    Bottom line, I load what i think will do the job. Currently, that is Winchester Ranger T. That said, I'm like others here, i've NEVER had a failure in a round I loaded and if I thought I could improve on the bullet they use in the Ranger T's, I would load it and use my load.

    BTW, not looking to fuss about what load is best (that's argument just ends up sucking BIG).

    sure like this forum!

  17. #17
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeonardC View Post
    Don't give them, either the legal system or the estate of the bad guy, any excusses to come after you.
    If you shoot someone they will be coming after you, and you best count on it!

    Every case is different and it's imposable to know before the fact what the police and DA will make their case around. In trying to do so you could very well do the legal equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. Like I said before just talking about it like we are now could be used to show we had pre-calculated the event to some extent putting our intent in a poor light. It’s best to think about living and save the legal speculation for after. Then don’t offer them anything, just say I would like to consult an attorney, and let the games begin.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    North Pole, AK
    Posts
    245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    If you shoot someone they will be coming after you, and you best count on it!

    Every case is different and it's imposable to know before the fact what the police and DA will make their case around. In trying to do so you could very well do the legal equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. Like I said before just talking about it like we are now could be used to show we had pre-calculated the event to some extent putting our intent in a poor light. Itís best to think about living and save the legal speculation for after. Then donít offer them anything, just say I would like to consult an attorney, and let the games begin.
    Good advice. Last I heard I think the rule of thumb was it would cost $10k per word.

  19. #19

    Default

    remember this one statement if do not remember anything else WHEN IT COMES TO A SHOOTING ..

    THE DA IS NOT YOUR FRIEND

    THE POLICE OFFICER OR DETECTIVE WHO IS TAKEING YOUR STATEMENT IS NOT YOUR FREIND


    REMEMBER YOU THIS STATE .I WANT TO A TALK TO A LAWYER BEFORE I MAKE A STATEMENT AND KEEP REPEATING THAT STATEMENT INTILL THEY GET YOU A LAWYER ..
    AND DO NOT SAYING ANYTHING ELSE INTILL THE LAYWERS GET THERE ,.
    REMEMBER THIS IT THERE JOB TO GET A PERSON TO CONFRESS TO THE CRIME ..THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND OR YOUR BUDDY NO MATTER HOW NICE THEY ARE TO YOU ..SHUT UP AND INTILL YOU LAWYER TALKS TO YOU AND DO NOT SAYING ANYTHING ELSE WITHOUT HIM STANDING RIGHT THERE TO KEEP YOU FROM STEPPING ON YOU TOUNGUE AND GET YOU INTO TROUBLE..

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Between two lakes in Alaska
    Posts
    952

    Default

    A short history of the 10mm vs dog case:

    Arizona: Harold Fish, 62, convicted of 2nd degree murder in June 2006, for shooting Grant Kuenzlie in May of 2004. Sentenced to 10 yrs. in prison. (served 3 years!)

    Case sparked a rewrite of AZ self-defense law.

    New trial ordered June 2009.

    County won't retry. Case moved to AZ sup. court.

    Dec. 2009, Fish no longer a conviced felon.

    More information on the case, and what was used against Fish at trial, available at Haroldfishdefense.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •