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Thread: Proposal #23

  1. #1
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    Default Proposal #23

    This proposal is the one that wants to reduce the number of TOK sheep permits from 100 to 80.

    I am not a big fan on reducing our hunting opportunities, but I do understand the problem. I asked the MAT valley AC to amendment to this proposal.

    I asked that they reduce the numbers to 80 permits as the proposal is written, but to issues an additional 40 archery permits.

    It passed 10 to 3.

    I basically told them that the reduction in permits has reduced the income to the air taxi operators, guides, ADF&G funding, hotels, food etc…. One thought that might have been overlooked is when we reduce the number of hunters in the field we also reduce the number of predators that are being harvested. Bottom line is more predators’ means less sheep.

    Also mentioned that issuing these additional permits are just that. Additional! We are not taking away from one group and giving to another.

    I truly hope the BOG listens, but it is doubtful since I know several BOG members will vote against this.

    So if you are for more hunting opportunities and/or an archery hunter it will be important to back this amendment.

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    Member sharksinthesalsa's Avatar
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    Default tok

    we have been seeing less and less sheep come in from this area at my work and most have not been the quality that this area can produce...everyone who does bring one in says that they seen wolves, or at least quite a bit of wolf sign.....i would vote for this....even for the extra archery tags.....any archery hunter should still carry a firearm....which they could still shoot predators with....somebody should write a proposal where you have to kill some type of predator before you can shoot a meat animal...
    "early to bed, early to rise, fish like hell, and make up lies"

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    south wrangells the guide that has the exclusive area there has flown sheep surverys every year for the last 20 years, says they have piles of mature rams but the ewe/lamb numbers are the lowest he's ever seen. He is anticipating a huge crash in the sheep population in the next decade...but on a high note...only place i've seen more eagles crusing the mtns is on kodiak!! (thats a pred that won't let me shoot....)
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    Member sledhands's Avatar
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    Default Eagles

    As a PSE packing sharp stick throwing sheep hunter I can honestly say good Idea. Archery sheep hunt success ratios are not real high. A couple of years ago my brother and I figured we had bagged several percent of the sheep for archery in 14C.
    And yes I always pack a rifle. Spelled alder crashing, sweat dripping heavy breathing, glasses foggin safety measure. Will work good for predators to.

    Hey Eagles eat sheep to don't They. There used to be a bounty on them now there is not even a season. Could we put in for a traditional eagle hunt I am sure I could use all of it for something jewelry. garnents, Potlatch's, dog food. Or the traditional leave it in the field it was diseased use.

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    ya eagles will go bonkers on sheep if given the chance..smaller sheep are better, hence the lack of ewes and lambs...managment is a funny thing. we'll manage stuff for us to kill and kill things that kill the stuff we want...but some things are just taboo i guess. but...i'd enter a drawing for an eagle tag!!
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    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Eagle feathers are an important part of Native Alaskan spirit dances. Where is the Ahtna proposal for Bald Eagle harvest permits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    I basically told them that the reduction in permits has reduced the income to the air taxi operators, guides, ADF&G funding, hotels, food etc….
    Somebody's pocketbook has no place in management decisions. What is best for the herd is the only thing that should be considered.

    I'm sorry, but if somebody has a business that depends on game animals for a profit, there are going to be ups and downs. It's the nature of nature. It does no good to over-harvest because an air taxi has an insurance payment coming up. What happens then when the next year there are even fewer animals?
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    do they actually issue all 100 now?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    Somebody's pocketbook has no place in management decisions. What is best for the herd is the only thing that should be considered.
    very well put. in addition to pocketbook i would add political agenda.

    and again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    What is best for the herd is the only thing that should be considered.
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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    i wish whats best for the herd was actually what IS considered but i feel like its not some of the time..ie..teir II...
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    Somebody's pocketbook has no place in management decisions. What is best for the herd is the only thing that should be considered.
    I agree, but that is not how it works. If everyone involved were concerned about the resources we would close a lot of the state to sheep hunting. But they would rather turn it into a draw, make a few extra dollars and manage us humans. Anything and everything has to do with the all mighty buck

    I only brought up the financial aspect since I believe it will have a positive effect on getting my amendment passed.

    Yes the current allotment of permits is 100, but it will be going down to 80. I believe this proposal was just a heads up since the ADF&G can reduce these permits without the vote of BOG.

    My goal is to increase hunter opportunity not reduce it!

    Archery is one means of doing this. Last year I submitted a proposal that would issue archery permits in Unit 13. This is the unit that went from open sheep season to 41 permits. ADF&G mentioned they could issue an additional 200 archery permits with no problem. BOG rejected it since several old timers on the BOG refuse to pass any proposals on “Special hunts”. In this case it had nothing to do with resources or money, it has everything to do with there own agendas. This is why I doubt this proposal passes.

    Hell I don’t even archery hunt, but when a BOG member tells me that he will not ever pass such a proposal it pisses me off! In fact, I am going to flood the next region 2 proposals with 50 archery ones.

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    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    Our job is to protect and preserve the animals for now and in the future. If we must give up # of permits to better the herd in the future lets do it. Bio have done a good job there on keeping #'s on the sheep....
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    So Alaska Gary, you would not back this proposal? Why?

    Archery hunters have less than a 4% harvest on any sheep here in 14, so one could believe that average harvest would be less than two. TOK bio jeff mentioned this would not hurt anything. I think the pro's outway the con's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    So Alaska Gary, you would not back this proposal? Why?

    Archery hunters have less than a 4% harvest on any sheep here in 14, so one could believe that average harvest would be less than two. TOK bio jeff mentioned this would not hurt anything. I think the pro's outway the con's.
    I would have to read Prop 23 first. It's a give and take. Sometimes we give up on a prop to get one.....
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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs down great idea, dude... NOT

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    ! In fact, I am going to flood the next region 2 proposals with 50 archery ones.
    troy this is the kind of attitude and reaction that is not only ineffective, but throttles the ability of the BOG to address all the issues before them in the alloted time.
    If you really were to submit 50 proposals, perhaps some of them might actually merit consideration, but those proposals will simply become lost in the "noise" of the others... i wouldn't be surprised to see the BOG lump all 50 together and vote them all down at once, just to "make a statement"
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    Smile great idea

    Troy: Great idea! Increasing hunting opportunities while preserving the resource. I wish the boards would think like this. Is seems like they only want to restrict sheep hunting. Everytime someone proposes an archery hunt they state "its an allocation issue" and avoid the topic. But they are proposing restrictions on caribou off the Steese to control harvest while preserving opportunity so clearly they can do this. Bowhunting off the haul road is another example.

    For some reason the percent of trophy sheep harvested is down in the TMA. In fact, the only place its not down in the last 20 years is the Chugach. Its already a permit hunt, so now they want to cut the number of hunters to see if that helps. I would rather do something like your proposal, or make the first season nonmotorized like DCU, or something rather than cutting opportunity. But keep coming up with new ideas as thats what the boards need!!
    “I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. “ Fred Bear

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    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    If you talk to old timers about the sheep populations, they bring up wolves. The Tok and Delta areas both are good wolf habitat, and the packs can grow quickly. They used to hunt wolves aerially. Bring that back, as a sheep management tool, and I think you'll see a lot of improvement. Instead of just managing the hunters, the entire system needs management.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Troy - I think this idea has some merit, as the same thing is done in 14C resulting in a lot of opportunity with very little increased harvest. I haven't thought through all of the issues, but on the surface I think this has my support.

    That being said, I hope you'll reconsider your idea to flood the next BoG process with 50 proposals. If you do, they'll likely ignore every single proposal that comes along with your name on it, as you'll come across as someone with an axe to grind instead of someone that has put forth thoughtful, substantive proposals. I'd hate to see a few good ideas lost in the mix of 50 proposals submitted out of frustration, anger, or whatever your goal is with that plan.

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    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    I will say this. Archery is a very low success rate. There are allot of hunters out there that enjoy the opportunity to go and hunt. With taking an animal it's an added bonus. Converting loss permits to Archery only hunts will still allow people to go out and enjoy the hunt with very minimal harvest numbers.
    If that low % in Archery hunts is still to much then by all means do what we have to do to get the numbers back up.
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  20. #20

    Default Our AC put this

    proposal together because SHEEP #'s are MUCH lower than in the past and the TMA is to be managed as a TROPHY sheep hunt. There were only 2 sheep 40" killed this past year. There were some 13 year old rams harvested and not over 40". We have some people on our AC that have hunted that TMA since its beginning. In reality we wanted to reduce the # of permits to 60, but felt 80 would have to do. So, if you give out 40 more permits and lets say 4 are successful, that has already defeated the purpose of lowering the harvest. It seems that our focus should be on management of sheep, NOT putting more hunters in the field to kill more of what we are trying to build up.

    By the way, the kill % may be lower for archery sheep, but the archers are getting better and better at what they do and if these guys are guided, the % increases. By the way, what has really hurt the TMA is the sheer #'s of people flying the hell out of it and finding the rams that way. A prediction for next years TMA from people that know it well is that there will be NO 40" rams harvested.

    I always see the less people in the field, the less predators killed, but show me statistics that prove that more people in the field kill more predators? I rarely hear of sheep hunters killing wolves, coyotes, bears, etc. Just another way to circumvent the problem by creating a hunt only for archers. I am against creating any "hunts" that are for certain people. Leave the tags open and if you choose to hunt with a bow, that is your choice.

    The TMA realistically needs to be closed to hunting for a few years, or needs to not be managed for trophy sheep. I hope everyone will support reducing the permits to 80 to protect the sheep resource and not the human $$ amount.

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