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Thread: Where was the outrage?

  1. #1
    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    Default Where was the outrage?

    When the Feds made a limited permit system for all freshwater guiding operations in this state that they control?

    Seriously, there's been limited entry in virtually every top notch fishery in this state for over 20 years, why is halibut any different?
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Member Wyatt's Avatar
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    Because freshwater isn't seen as financially lucrative and as such, supply and demand will always favor permits in the salt. Fresh also caters to do it yourself!

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    I think the difference has nothing to do with being lucrative. A river guide makes more money than a saltwater guide for sure. They have 10% of the expenses and the rate to go fishing in the river has been higher than the salt for 15 years.

    The reason it is different is becasue the preception is that the ocean is full of fish and that limiting access to the ocean, by any means, for sportfishing is a newer concept. A river is a limited peice of water that often runs through Federal lands. The ocean is vast and has been,viewed by many as a place where there is so much life that sportfishing really is not significant enough to effect fish populations. People are learning that in fact as large as the ocean is, that fish are particular creatures that are likley to live in the same areas for a long, long time; making them subject to being slaughtered.

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    Though I wasn't old enough to vote nearly 40 years ago, the exclusive rights exemption made all limited entry permits a commodity. And without rehashing the charter comm fish debate, as a whole, ocean limited entry fisheries are more valuable. There's an asset to harvest! When debates get heated, it usually involves money!

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    I have enjoyed reading the posts that you have made on the Halibut topics AKCAPT and I will admit that I have even learned a few things but you are way off in left filed on your last post on the freshwater guide topic.

    10% of the expenses? Higher prices on freshwater versus saltwater charters? I will give you that the average saltwater boat cost way more than the average riverboat and that fuel is a big consideration in the salt but there are many more factors than I could even begin to mention that come into play as to why I would argue this point but it really doesn't matter to much.

    Anyway, there was an outrage on the freshwater limited entry permit but this permit system went into effect years ago and in most if not all the cases the folks that were fishing those areas got a permit to continue their charter operations. In at least one case it went to an application type process to determine who got the permits which was and still is based on several things like how much experience you had in that area and what you had vested in it as well.

    The halibut permit system has an entirely different set of circumstances and I fully understand why everyone that is in the fishery did not get a permit but IMO that is why there are some that are having a little heartburn in regards to this system. Then you add to the fact that some guides are now out of business and those that are allowed to continue to charter for halibut now have a permit that is sell-able. By the way the freshwater permits on Federal Waters are only good for five years at which time you have to reapply for the same permit, you might be denied if there is a more qualified application, and you are not allowed to sell the permit. Wonder why this type of permit system did not have more traction than the one that went into effect?
    Last edited by iceblue; 02-13-2010 at 17:01. Reason: spell check

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceblue View Post
    Anyway, there was an outrage on the freshwater limited entry permit but this permit system went into effect years ago and in most if not all the cases the folks that were fishing those areas got a permit to continue their charter operations.

    don't you think that some people realized that the number of halibut charter operators should have been limited a long time ago before the number of permits got so out of control like it has?


    why has this been so hard to stomach? because people are independent and greedy.



    Someone explain to me why halibut charter operators didn't accept this a long time ago. Because they couldn't agree. Just maybe it is in your own interest to sacrifice some of your personal greediness for some communal gain down the road.

    Am I wrong?

    Was this not the issue?

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    Let's see. From ADF&G

    2004 2C Charter Businesses: 409
    2009 2C Charter Businesses: 380

    2004 3A Charter Businesses: 444
    2009 3A Charter Businesses: 417

    Looks like it's shrinking to me. Plus charters catch approx 8%, private anglers catch approx 7% and comfish catches approx 85%. Politics and money is driving this and even after the massive cuts next year my bet is there won't be any less halibut caught they are just going to be redistributed. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear Knot View Post
    Let's see. From ADF&G

    2004 2C Charter Businesses: 409
    2009 2C Charter Businesses: 380

    2004 3A Charter Businesses: 444
    2009 3A Charter Businesses: 417

    Looks like it's shrinking to me. Plus charters catch approx 8%, private anglers catch approx 7% and comfish catches approx 85%. Politics and money is driving this and even after the massive cuts next year my bet is there won't be any less halibut caught they are just going to be redistributed. Time will tell.
    The exponential charter growth that drove the charter limited entry program happened long before 2004-2009...most in the mid 1980's to early 1990's. Charter growth was concern enough decades ago that the Charter Working Group was established way back in 1993 to finally address it and present management alternatives to control that growth. Then in 1995 the Council finally issued a problem statement and control date. What happened in the following 15 years has been a cluster of allocation battles, lawsuits, due process, and a painful learning experience...all while the charter industry grew more.

    So your data is not representitive of the industry's overall growth. To say it's "shrinking" ignores any basis of where it began. In my opinion your data is an indicator of recent economy woes (since most all areas of tourism-related services have dropped).

    Additionally, using your 2004-2009 time period, charters represented an average of about 17% of the combined charter/private/commercial harvest in 2C (over 21% in 2008) and about 12% in 3A, not 8%. Charters exceeded their harvest levels every year, and harvested up to 215% of their GHL in 2008 alone. Commercial harvest was under limits, and slashed 52% during the same time.ADFG Reference and NMFS Reference.

    Allocation has been challenged and determined to be fair and equitable per court confirmation. I agree, since the commercial fishery serves millions and millions of the national public who owns the fishery, while charters only serve an extremely small fraction of a percentage who can afford to travel to Alaska and hire them.

    The charter industry's limited entry permit program qualification is based on recent fishing years, not those early 1980-1990 growth years that drove the concern. So in my opinion the charter limited entry program qualification is very liberal, especially considering the commercial fishery's limited entry permit program was based on participation back to 1984. I doubt charter numbers will ever be required to be what they were in 1984, or even the 1995 control date.

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    Like I said it's redistribution. Many, many Alaskans use charter service's not just tourists, but it's all about money.

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    Redistribution only in a sense that it is being allocated back to where it used to be.

    The LEP program and bag limit reduction in 2C will force charters to better meet their harvest limits (GHL's) and curb their uncontrolled growth that allocated halibut away from the limited commercial fishery and other sectors, and to themselves.

    Yes, some Alaskans use charters, but 98% of 2C halibut charter effort is non-resident, and 75% of 3A halibut charter effort is non-resident. 83% overall ( Reference (page 20) 2006-2008 ) . Again, my point was that the charter industry is primarily a tourism-related industry, and your idea the charter industry is "shrinking" based on 2004-2009 data is more of an indicator of our country's recent economic woes. Charter growth is better understood by recognizing where and when that growth began (not taking a snapshot in time between 2004-2009), the effects that growth had on allocation away from other sectors already in the fishery, and GHL exceedences the growth caused.

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    So they have more right to a resource than anyone else? It sounds as if they have the sole say when, where and who is permitted to catch halibut. Guess free market and free enterprise really is going away. I'm interpreting from you post we should go way, way back and get rid of all charters. How would that effect the Alaskan economy? The ripple effect this will economically have on small businesses in Alaskan communities is going to be intersting to see, but time will tell. The private angler is going to be the next target.

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    There is no free enterprise when one sector is limited by law, and the other isn't. For example commercial halibut longliners, and commercial sport charter halibut boats.
    Also no one wants charters to go away. Gramps didn't say that YOU said that. You can say stuff like that all day, and it makes you look silly. No where in any proposal does it outline "getting rid of all charters" nor will that happen.

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    For starters I didn't say Gramps wanted charters to go away nor did I say it was proposed anywhere. I said that was what I interpreted by the keep going back staement. Read it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear Knot View Post
    For starters I didn't say Gramps wanted charters to go away
    Dude I read it and, yes, you did:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fear Knot View Post
    I'm interpreting from you post we should go way, way back and get rid of all charters
    I'm not getting into the merits of the allocations between charter & commercial...but at least own up to what you said in your previous post.

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    Charter boats are going to be able to lease IFQ from the commercial sector in the near future.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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