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Thread: Cow hunt's in any unit./Predetor control.

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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Default Cow hunt's in any unit./Predetor control.

    O.K. I've said that I would'nt talk about this on here anymore, however this is going to be a major topic at the BOG meetings later this month.

    Thus I have to enter into this one more time.

    For those of you that voted on the cow hunt in the Delta area, you have got what you wanted. Lower moose accidents, no more predetor's luring around town, and a good possibality of more game restriction's.

    The whole thing about this is that nobody spent time here to do the research , and now after the people came in and used the place for there own little great spot to kill moose, it's closed, it's time to move to the next place, and when that place is closed they will go to another place, etc.etc,

    Well let me tell you about the bear's and wolf's, they go where the food is. You wont find to many in the Delta area for a few year's. You have just repeated history, and I can't believe it.

    There was a post on another thread about the unit in the Wasila area where they had a pop of 6600 moose and still want cow hunt's, you ar'nt ever going to grow a heard with the kinda number's that were posted, poacher's, predators, and cow hunt;s, and then add in the calf hunt on top of it.

    The one thing I don't get is why the hell are we trying to control the natrual sience of thing's to put more food in the frezzer's of people that just want the chance to shoot a critter? When this is over, You yourself's are the one's to blame on this.

    These critter's lived here a long time before we got here, and never had a problem with over grazing, but some BIO went out and took some pic's, and said " WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS"

    Maybe some did die off from unknown cause's, but dang that's to be expected, but to over harvest a herd not knowing what the next act of nature will be, and the death count will be is short sighted in my way of thinking.

    The Point being is that all of you listening to all that come's out of a few at the meeting's, should look at the other side to.

    Hope it won't be your area next because you're afraid to speak up, Good Luck, E.S.

    And yea Vince and Mark I sure you will have something to say about this, I'm just trying to do my part to save the moose for our kid's.

  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    hmm and all this time i thought there were moose in delta cause they got blown in on the wind or from military mortar practice...


    funny thing about the moose populations in the state. many were not here at all before the 1940's
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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    O.K vince, you're going to have to post that bit of info,( moose not being here/ or few before 1940)

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    O.K vince, you're going to have to post that bit of info,( moose not being here/ or few before 1940)
    ALREADY HAVE AND BEEN SEARCHING FOR IT... gustavas moose study..or somethin like that... show the progression of the moose moving into and around AK
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    there are not many clear numbers and reports on moose (or other game)populations more than 60 years ago....how do you think they would have counted them?


    one thing that should be obvious is that predators were artifically depressed prior to statehood in many populated areas by extensive bounty hunting, so those large game species with sufficient browse generally increased rapidly during this time.

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    and there are several stories out there about moose spreading to the kenai pen for the "first time" (at least in memory) around the turn of the century...and the caribou going south due to substantial habitat changes caused by fires.


    My guess is that the mat-su used to have far fewer moose before people begin clearing land and burning areas (and then of course the matanuska moose range habitat mods). And there used to be many more caribou here...right in the talkeetna foothills and probably in the core mat-su area.

    But the caribou (southern extension of nelchina herd) were hunted out by miners in the willow creek area well before the 1940s, and the sheep just about as well.



    these population numbers always ebb and flow. it is we who seem to be fixated on an artifical stability so we can harvest our huge surplus.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Rock - The valley moose hunts are done quite differently than the Delta moose hunts. The first year of the Delta cow tags they gave away 800+ permits for a relatively small area. A similar sized area in the valley would have closer to 100 cow permits. I understand your complaints about what happened in Delta, but these cow hunts in the valley are on a much smaller scale and have been held for a number of years with no noticeable net negative effect.

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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    And that's the point I'm trying to get across Brian.

    You can't have a mass cut down in the pop. for four year's straight and think that you will still be able to hunt the same area after that.

    20A is next.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    I understand your complaints about what happened in Delta, but these cow hunts in the valley are on a much smaller scale and have been held for a number of years with no noticeable net negative effect.
    I am odds with you on this comment. I personally have noticed the "net negative effect". And...unoffically, the Palmer office reports 2000 moose a year go missing in the valley, unaccounted for. I contend many of those are orphaned calves, calves that never got born and the killing of Cows that have gone unreported. The killing of Cows has led to the undesirable thinking that it is OK to do so. Moose numbers are down, way down. The weather has been excellent for years, road kills are down, train kills are down, the only thing UP is the killing of Cows, lots of them. I see it, others see it.
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    akres-

    in my thinking this is not a problem of the entire unit. i have not conversed with many fellow mat-su moose hunters who seem able to identify what i think is truly frustrating them.

    The unit as a whole has a lot of moose. Unfortunately, the ratio of hunters to legally harvestable moose has drastically changed in many treasured areas, and the access is so easy now.

    If you hunt anywhere within 20 miles of willow or sutton then i bet the area that you hunt is recieving much more hunting pressure than there are legal moose compared to just over 20 years ago.


    This is NOT because of current low population numbers.

    Combined with the artificially high populations of the seventies and eighties, which have decreased, it's because our treasured hunting areas with difficult access are becoming overrun by hunters on atvs who are reaching into the last cracks in our habitat where moose can hide. (the same applies to other game and furbearers)

    This is why mat-su hunters area really upset.

    And as the valley's private farmlands (mostly the noncultivated parts), large tracts of some of the best moose growing habitat on earth, continue to become subdivided and inhabitated by humans, these areas where large numbers of moose congregate with overly ample forage very near to our population centers are being dissolved and not replaced.

    The millers reach fire provided a lot more browse in the houston and biglake area but let's be honest that fire wasn't all that large. it helps but not enough for the whole unit.



    Potlatch hunts? Cow hunts?

    How about confining the motorized access a bit.

    It's in all our interests.



    I do own at ATV and use it.


    I would also be perfectly happy drawing several circles on a map of the mat-su valley and restricting motor vehicle access to designated trails only. Unit 14 is getting awfully crowded. We can protect the pockets of habitat richness that we have now or we can hunt and trap them to death. I'm not talking about any closed access. But let's keep the ATVs and snowmachines on certain trails in crowded areas, make hunters actually have to work to get to the treasured cracks in the most crowded game unit in the state.

    I'm not talking these restrictions in the whole unit. But don't you think we should try to keep access difficult to some of these areas?

    Sorry for the rant but i wish mat-su hunters (and statewide) would recognize this as the serious issue. in my mind it obviously is. am i wrong?

    most people have many more years of mat-su moose hunting than I.

    I wish more of these people would agreed to some limitations on the motorized access in some areas. They might like hunting moose in the mat-su a whole lot more that way.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    O.K vince, you're going to have to post that bit of info,( moose not being here/ or few before 1940)

    here is part of it.. this is NOT the report i posted last year some time


    http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index....gustavusmoose
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    . Moose numbers are down, way down. The weather has been excellent for years, road kills are down, train kills are down, the only thing UP is the killing of Cows, lots of them. I see it, others see it.

    I'm not sure what relative length of time your comparing the low populations to Res, but if you've been outdoors in the 12-24 months, you would have noticed a LOT of moose..As many and more than I've seen in the 15 years I've lived here in 14A/B..Personally, I think it is due to the intensive predator management ie, aerial wolf killing and alot of additional pressure to kill bears...it has made a difference, IMO...hopefully we will be smart enough to know when to stop.


    Edited to add that I think andweav hit the nail on the head...regarding ease of access to hunt areas....the # of legal bulls per hunter is way low, but the overall numbers of moose are pretty darned high, IMO.

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    There are still lots of moose in 14A. But they aren't everywhere like some people believe. Lots of moose in Pt. mac, moose up on the mountain up zero lake road, church road area, but they aren't everywhere.

    The thing about 14A that hurts is most (not all) of the potlatch hunters come from Anchorage and shoot a moose and go back to Anchorage with it.

    They are taking "our" moose, so to speak. Hard argument to make, but when it goes unnoticed, it's frustrating.
    And for every moose killed via potlatch, that's one less tag in the draw.
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pike_palace View Post
    There are still lots of moose in 14A. But they aren't everywhere like some people believe. Lots of moose in Pt. mac, moose up on the mountain up zero lake road, church road area, but they aren't everywhere.

    The thing about 14A that hurts is most (not all) of the potlatch hunters come from Anchorage and shoot a moose and go back to Anchorage with it.

    They are taking "our" moose, so to speak. Hard argument to make, but when it goes unnoticed, it's frustrating.
    And for every moose killed via potlatch, that's one less tag in the draw.

    WOW!!!


    i guess i should say the SAME about 20a BULL OR COW TAGS...


    ALL THOSE FOLKS from Anchorage and the valley keep coming up here taking OUR MOOSE!!! for every moose they take back there.. That is ONE less moose for those in the Interior....


    we have already had this discussion... and the fact of potlatch was NOT an issue in this depth until the Ahtna folks wrote the first props to get it worked out.

    NOW !!! however it seems to be the bandwagon..


    heres and idea...




    MOVE! right back to where ever these tight ass ideas are born. and stay there. fewer people in the valley means more moose for those the live there. and more moose here too.!
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    Yes Vince, because there is just SO MANY people who drive from Anchorage up to Delta, or Fairbanks, or Livengood to hunt moose.

    You think people from the valley are the only ones to go hunt 20A?
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pike_palace View Post
    Yes Vince, because there is just SO MANY people who drive from Anchorage up to Delta, or Fairbanks, or Livengood to hunt moose.

    You think people from the valley are the only ones to go hunt 20A?
    do you think only natives from anchorage hunt moose in the valley?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    do you think only natives from anchorage hunt moose in the valley?
    I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with them shooting moose out here and it isn't being recorded so they can have their potlatches.

    And I don't know why your complaining about lots of people up in unit 20. The majority of it is any bull, except for 20A. There are lots of land restrictions and vehicle restrictions, but still, ANY BULL. We're still in the "50 or 3" class down here.
    Last edited by pike_palace; 02-13-2010 at 15:27. Reason: added some info.
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    Default 20 a

    Of course they are our moose Vince. That is why others are given rural preference for their moose.

    Res I think the moose have been here for quite sometime Our Beloved captain Cook reported the taking of a 116" er if I am not mistaken on the alaska peninsula That was between 1728 and 1779 leaning toward the latter. He died in 79. I read this in the museum in Valdez. The size might be incorrect but it was over 100 as I recall. Bigger than any I have ever seen or heard of but I have seen 95.
    Now I don't believe they (moose) were as wide spread as today. In 77 a bull my brother and I killed on the Kobuk was the first moose many locals had ever seen. They are now fairly prevailant here on the northern side of the brooks and these boys up here bag some beauty's

    As I stated in the AC vote post. I don't believe the valley has near the moose it can support. Everyone keeps implying that they are somehow hiding in secluded areas here. Helloo they are moose 6' tall 8' long brown stand out like a sore thumb in the winter. Really stand out good if you are color blind in the summer and fall to. You all should try it some time but don't go buy your wife a green car ha ha it may be brown.
    If we need to increase the bull cow ratio stop the bull hunts and up the cow that will definately bring the #s together quick. At which point we can go hunt somebody else's moose while our correct numbers multiply at a balanced rate. When the correct populace is reached we can hunt again for our moose and invite all of the urbanites to come and share in our wealth with no preference.

    Motorized hunting spelled ATV. Quash them I have never owned one would not bother me at all, probably make it a little safer out there. What about boats and planes?

    Rock_skipper
    "For those of you that voted on the cow hunt in the Delta area, you have got what you wanted. Lower moose accidents, no more predetor's luring around town, and a good possibality of more game restriction's
    You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

    Here I thought it was only me. Welcome to the Brotherhood

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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Here's something I found Vince, don't know if it will change your mind, but""" I believe that it say's something about 1899, and there were a whole lot less people and way's of seeing them back then. Smiles

    www.smouse.force9.co.uk

    Been gone for a couple of day's seeing the grand-baby, lol,. Good looking little man, and I will say that he was so mistified by me that he would'nt close his eye's, lol. That's the longest he's had eye's open in the 4 day's since he was born. I must just be ugly or something, lol. Good time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sledhands View Post
    Motorized hunting spelled ATV. Quash them I have never owned one would not bother me at all, probably make it a little safer out there. What about boats and planes?


    power boats and planes both allow people to disperse fairly effectively and the footprint left on the land during travel is relatively minimal.

    obivously there are some issues with overcrowding of power/air boats in certain areas...the little su is one i am familiar with but we could talk the kenai, the salcha, etc.

    However boats are well confined to fairly linear corridors...thus the increase in people hauling atvs in boats. At least they are dispersing fairly effectively.


    Roadside ATV hunters are in my opinion not dispersing effectively at all, and it will continue to get worse until we are willing to make some personal sacrifices and agree to restrict atv use and protect the last few treasured patches of habitat that we have where there ISN'T such easy access.

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