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Thread: .416 Caliber Rifles

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Default .416 Caliber Rifles

    I am looking at 416 caliber rifles. I slightly would prefer the 416 Rigby, because of the wide availability and variety of factory ammo--from fairly mild loads like this (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=522212) to near-Weatherby loads, like this (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=728499). I also would consider the 416 Weatherby. I also would consider the 416 Rem.

    For those of you who have experience with any of the 416s and rifles listed below, could you offer any advice? I was considering (with approximate price):

    $3,500: CZ 550 with the AHR Upgrade #3 listed here: http://www.hunting-rifles.com/CZ/CZowners.htm



    $3,500: Weatherby custom Mark V Dangerous Game Rifle:
    http://www.weatherby.com/customshop/customrifle/44294



    $2,400: Ruger M77 Mark II in 416 Rigby: http://www.ruger.com/products/m77MarkIIMagnum/models.html



    $???: Blaser in 416 Rem.

    What is the best gun/cartridge combination of those in terms of value, durabilty, reliability, strength, etc ...?

    Thanks in advance for any advice!

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    I think you have found the perfect 416 Rigby........the CZ in the pic is awesome! I would prefer it over the other two and it is the "improved" version as well. It is set up in the English style with a slightly shorter barrel and one heck of a fine chunk of walnut. Look no further if it is in your budget.
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  3. #3
    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I think you have found the perfect 416 Rigby........the CZ in the pic is awesome! I would prefer it over the other two and it is the "improved" version as well. It is set up in the English style with a slightly shorter barrel and one heck of a fine chunk of walnut. Look no further if it is in your budget.
    Thanks Murphy. I was hoping you particularly would respond. I think I would stick with the 25” barrel for the time being. I could always chop it. Do you think I’m getting good advice in the cut and paste below from my e-mail dialogue with AHR? What advantages do you think the modified CZ linked above would have over the DG Mark V?:

    Q: Aside from fit, will the #3 Upgrade stock come close to a synthetic stock in resisting the ill effects of bad weather? For example, it is possible that I would use it on a bear hunt this September in Alaska, where I could experience considerable rain. Do I need a synthetic for those types of conditions?

    A: Our wood stocks are sealed inside and out and are very resistant to normal amounts of moisture. They are not as durable as a synthetic in extreme wet conditions. I wouldn’t hesitate to hunt in the rain with our wood stock, but Alaska can put a whole new meaning on moisture. If you take care of the wood and put a good coat of wax on it before your hunt you should be fine.

    Q: What would the overall weight of the gun be after you are done? Within reasonable limits, I prefer heavier.

    A: Both guns would weigh approx. 9 lbs without a scope, but we can add weight if you want heavier. 10 to 10-1/2 lbs is good for a 416. The advantages of the wood stock would be the fit. The Kevlar comes in a one-size-fits-all. The Walnut stock can be adjusted for your length-of-pull, forend length, comb height. The Walnut stock also has a more open grip which is more comfortable for hunting.

    Q: I probably would not mind something in 10.5-lb range to mitigate recoil. Do you install or recommend for or against installing any of the mercury reducers?

    A: 10-1/2 lbs is a good weight on a 416. We do install mercury reducers and they work well on this caliber. Since we have to add weight to reach 10-1/2 lbs anyway, it would be good to do it by installing the reducer.

    Q: I was considering the option of firing pretty hot ammo, like this stuff, which appear to almost replicate a 416 Weatherby: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=728499
    Is that a bad idea in terms of wear on the rifle?

    A: That ammo will not hurt the rifle at all. Your shoulder will take the wear. We sell the same CorBon ammo.

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    Member Matt's Avatar
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    I know you didn't ask, but you can get a 416 Ruger Alaskan for $800 and it would do everything at a third of the cost of the rifles you have listed. $3,500 for a Weatherby is a joke!

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    I think Matt has given you some perceptive advice. I would add that the 416 Rigby is a hugh case (perhaps even more so for the Weatherby flavor) and loaded ammo is not cheap. It is essential to do a lot of shooting with your new rifle. Handloading can significantly ameliorate this expense. Nevertheless, so long as you go into your purchase with both eyes open and accept the potential associated attendant expenses then get what you want and enjoy your new purchase.

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    Default If you have $$ to burn

    Sure the Rigby is really a nice gun, so is the 416 Rem. I decided to go with the 416 Ruger and am very pleased with it. Ballistically it is right up there with both the Rigby and the Rem. And I like that I was able to get it for less than $1,000, and its in Stainless.

    Good luck.
    Tony

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    We have a synthetic stocked 700 that has had some custom work done to it by someone,good job I might add. I dont know what the price is but I'm certain it is less than any you listed. It is chambered for the 416 Rem. Ought to come check it out.

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    Oops sorry, didn't see you were in VA.

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    I know you didn't ask, but you can get a 416 Ruger Alaskan for $800 and it would do everything at a third of the cost of the rifles you have listed. $3,500 for a Weatherby is a joke!

    The Ruger will do everything the others will except look and feel nice, or function properly...Don't get me started again...

    If you're willing to spend the money, that upgraded CZ sure is perdy. But I'm also a fan of Weatherbys. I'm currently pondering one of the DGRs in .375 Wby. I haven't priced the DGR in .416, but the ones in .375 can be had for under $2500, unless you included several other custom options to arrive at your $3500 price tag. There is also the option of the Winchester M70 Safari Express in 416 Rem Mag listed at $1279. http://www.winchesterguns.com/produc...=535116#center

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c04hoosier View Post
    The Ruger will do everything the others will except look and feel nice, or function properly...Don't get me started again...

    If you're willing to spend the money, that upgraded CZ sure is perdy. But I'm also a fan of Weatherbys. I'm currently pondering one of the DGRs in .375 Wby. I haven't priced the DGR in .416, but the ones in .375 can be had for under $2500, unless you included several other custom options to arrive at your $3500 price tag. There is also the option of the Winchester M70 Safari Express in 416 Rem Mag listed at $1279. http://www.winchesterguns.com/produc...=535116#center
    Thanks. I was just going off the price list here:
    http://www.weatherby.com/customshop/customrifle/44294

    It says the .375 is $3,274.00. How can you get them cheaper?

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    Member c04hoosier's Avatar
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    I am going off of "Buy Now" prices listed on Gunbroker.com for brand new DGRs. The cheapest I see is $1995 for a .375 H&H. However, I didn't see a .416 listed on there.

    The way I understand it, you design your custom Weatherby and then give the specs to your local gunshop. They in turn order the rifle and then determine the price based on what their cost was. In other words, the price listed on the website seems to be a "suggested retail price." That may account for the difference. I could be wrong, though. I've never ordered a custom gun.

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c04hoosier View Post
    I am going off of "Buy Now" prices listed on Gunbroker.com for brand new DGRs. The cheapest I see is $1995 for a .375 H&H. However, I didn't see a .416 listed on there.

    The way I understand it, you design your custom Weatherby and then give the specs to your local gunshop. They in turn order the rifle and then determine the price based on what their cost was. In other words, the price listed on the website seems to be a "suggested retail price." That may account for the difference. I could be wrong, though. I've never ordered a custom gun.
    Thanks for the info. I called one of the few local Wby dealers around here, and they said I could get the 416 Wby DGR for about $2,900, which is, at least, better than the MSRP. And I do like my 340 Accumark. Hmm. Lot's of thinking to do.

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    Member Eastwoods's Avatar
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    That CZ is gorgous! Remember we carry 'em and look at 'em more than we shoot 'em.

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    Default 416 ruger issues???

    Not sure what issues your talking about c04hoosier, mine has worked great, is well balanced, and the stock is like glue. So for me, it is all I want. Don't get me wrong, I really like the CZ or the Ruger in the the 458 Lott, but for the money and the ballistics's on the 416 Ruger, for me, I am very pleased with it. Not to mention being stainless.

    My buddies dad was bear hunting with us last fall and he accidently dropped his Weatherby into the ocean when we were beaching the raft, and he spend the next several hours cleaning his awesome gun. Mine, if that happens, I'll drop it in fresh water, wipe it off and hunting I will go.
    Tony

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzieli22 View Post
    Not sure what issues your talking about c04hoosier, mine has worked great, is well balanced, and the stock is like glue. So for me, it is all I want. Don't get me wrong, I really like the CZ or the Ruger in the the 458 Lott, but for the money and the ballistics's on the 416 Ruger, for me, I am very pleased with it. Not to mention being stainless.

    My buddies dad was bear hunting with us last fall and he accidently dropped his Weatherby into the ocean when we were beaching the raft, and he spend the next several hours cleaning his awesome gun. Mine, if that happens, I'll drop it in fresh water, wipe it off and hunting I will go.
    tzieli: Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Ruger rifles. And the only reason I'm hesitant about the 416 Ruger, is there is very little diversity in ammo to be had.

    But, and I wasn't there, a guy who spends a couple hours cleaning his rifle after dropping it into the Loch Ness probably is a good thing and he likely has a great rifle for years--Weatherby or not. My Mark V has never failed despite some abuse. I'm not sure if the "drop it into the water .. wipe it off" concept is that great of a philosophy or if the Weatherby rifles are really less functional when that happens. Did the Wby guy try to fire his rifle and it failed? Or was he just taking care of his weapon? If it's the former, I'd be surprised based on my own experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    Thanks Murphy. I was hoping you particularly would respond. I think I would stick with the 25” barrel for the time being. I could always chop it. Do you think I’m getting good advice in the cut and paste below from my e-mail dialogue with AHR? What advantages do you think the modified CZ linked above would have over the DG Mark V?:

    Q: Aside from fit, will the #3 Upgrade stock come close to a synthetic stock in resisting the ill effects of bad weather? For example, it is possible that I would use it on a bear hunt this September in Alaska, where I could experience considerable rain. Do I need a synthetic for those types of conditions?

    A: Our wood stocks are sealed inside and out and are very resistant to normal amounts of moisture. They are not as durable as a synthetic in extreme wet conditions. I wouldn’t hesitate to hunt in the rain with our wood stock, but Alaska can put a whole new meaning on moisture. If you take care of the wood and put a good coat of wax on it before your hunt you should be fine.

    Q: What would the overall weight of the gun be after you are done? Within reasonable limits, I prefer heavier.

    A: Both guns would weigh approx. 9 lbs without a scope, but we can add weight if you want heavier. 10 to 10-1/2 lbs is good for a 416. The advantages of the wood stock would be the fit. The Kevlar comes in a one-size-fits-all. The Walnut stock can be adjusted for your length-of-pull, forend length, comb height. The Walnut stock also has a more open grip which is more comfortable for hunting.

    Q: I probably would not mind something in 10.5-lb range to mitigate recoil. Do you install or recommend for or against installing any of the mercury reducers?

    A: 10-1/2 lbs is a good weight on a 416. We do install mercury reducers and they work well on this caliber. Since we have to add weight to reach 10-1/2 lbs anyway, it would be good to do it by installing the reducer.

    Q: I was considering the option of firing pretty hot ammo, like this stuff, which appear to almost replicate a 416 Weatherby: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=728499
    Is that a bad idea in terms of wear on the rifle?

    A: That ammo will not hurt the rifle at all. Your shoulder will take the wear. We sell the same CorBon ammo.
    I think they are shooting straight about the rifle. Well sealed walnut is no where near the weak link many folks claim. My considerations is beating and banging a stock up in a rough Alaskan hunt. I disagree about the weight. I think ten pounds is too heavy for any rifle and recoil is better mitigated with correct stock dimensions and a good recoil pad than by weight. Also the mercury in the butt throws off the balance of an otherwise fine rifle. I have shot every caliber of rifle known to man and don't find recoil the problem most do. I have fired many heavy recoilers, 470 Capstick, 500 Jeffery, etc and at that level a ten pound rifle is a consideration but I've shot them well in 8 1/2#.

    In the 458/416 class 8 1/2# is enough. That more relaxed pistol grip is a major advantage with the second finger knuckles and weight won't matter there, it is stock design. For what its worth I am seriously considering the same rifle in the 404 Jeffery and it can and will be loaded to the 400 grains at 2400 fps. I am asking for 23" and 8 pounds flat, sans scope.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  17. #17
    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Thanks Murphy for the helpful comments.

    Here are my thoughts up to this point about each of the following based on the comments you have all given me. Am I missing anything I should consider?:

    AHR CZ 550 SAFARI:

    PROS:
    * More handsome.

    * Fires the Rigby: with more different factory loads available; and easier to find in far away places.

    CONS:
    * Probably a little less weather resistent and significantly less ding resistant.

    * The ammo I want (the only 350gr factory load) is $230/box: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=728499

    * Unknown how the AHR will recoil on me compared to the Wby.

    * About $600 more expensive than Mk V.

    * Not sure what response to expect if there is some problem with the gun, especially if AHR goes out of business.

    WEATHERBY MK V DGR:

    PROS:
    * About $600 less expensive than AHR.

    * Probably a little better suited to getting wet and banged up.

    * I already own and revere a Mk V Accumark in 340 Wby. Familiar with the rifle/operation/maintenance.

    * Mk V stock seems to fit and dampen recoil to me.

    * The ammo I want (the 350gr factory load) is only $150/box: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=455374

    * A little more powerful than the Rigby.

    * Comes with proven removable factory brake.

    * Weatherby will be around forever and stand by their rifles.

    CONS:
    * Not as pretty.

    As much as I love the AHR's looks, I think you can see which way I am leaning, but I appreciate any thoughts on what I am overlooking.

    Thanks again.

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    Don't forget the warm fuzzy feeling.

    I don't know if you stated but I'm taking the Mark V as a 416 Weatherby caliber, right? The Rigby is the first, the genuine, the original 416. Nothing can or ever will remove it from its deep African roots or the originality of its milestone ballistics in a repeating rifle. Yes there are many newer and some more powerful with the same number but there is only one Rigby. That is a warm fuzzy that cannot be replaced by any amount of energy at the muzzle or whiz bangery in the title not even one named after yourself.

    Secondly the Mauser action is and was the original and the CZ is a modern extension of that action. AHR has made some changes that most appreciate in a DGR, namely the three position Winchester wing safety lever and the elimination of the main gripe with the CZ 602/550 rifle.....the stupid set trigger. Do these mods matter to you? Does this true CRF Mauser action matter to you?

    I am less familiar with the Mark V action but don't think it is CRF and for many in this world that is a deal breaker, for many others it is of no consequence. The CZ action is naturally heavy, the Mark V not quite so much. Most DG hunters of Africa want the weight centered between the hands for that quick swing into action rather than the long heavy barrel of guns such as the Remington M700. (in heavy calibers) Try their very front heavy 416 rifle. To me such a rifle is an abomination to use in a hurry in heavy cover. Weight and balance does matter. For me the AHR rifles like the Empire and Dakota in heavy calibers are very well balanced. I don't find that with the Weatherby design and the stock, though very rigid and extremely well made, does not give me the quick recovery time of the straight walnut stocks of the previous three. Also if you add weight to the butt in the form of mercury, this added weight and the counter recoil of the liquid slosh does reduce shoulder felt recoil but it seems to increase the muzzle flip which further adds too the recovery time for a second shot. Second shot speed is and has always been very important in DG rifles. Nothing is faster for a second shot than a good double rifle. The action and stock design become of paramount importance in a repeating rifle to get the best speed for a second shot. Often when selection a large caliber rifle we make our selection on things that are important to our way of thinking but often that is flawed. Today very few of us have the experience of to draw upon to make well informed decisions about heavy rifles and we go with the flow or some of our aesthetic preferences or something more suitable to type because of the terrain or elements. Thus the synthetic stock for adverse weather and rough use. All very valid but less important when the animal you have just shot is ready to give you a lap dance or teach you to tango. Nothing can replace the well placed first shot to dispatch an animal quickly but nothing is more important the the second shot in speed and accuracy when things go wrong on the first..........and things can and do go wrong every day with our first shot.

    Given that we could ask which one would be faster for the second shot? But there is more to it. Which is more reliable for the second shot? I am not maligning the Mark V at all nor am I advocating CRF only. But if you believe a CRF is more reliable, but for what ever reason carry a non CRF rifle in the field, you'll always have that nagging thought in your head about it and that can cause you to choke when you should be shooting straight. If you believe as many do that the Mark V is every bit as reliable as any Mauser then that doesn't matter much in this discussion. I have used push feeder Sako rifles on dangerous game for many years and consider them ultra reliable. My experience with the M700, a popular push feeder, makes it an utter disaster in the dangerous game fields. (Sorry M700 fans) You do make a good point about the familiarity with the Weatherby action/stock/function and that can be very important during periods of mild stress. You won't have to retrain yourself as would most for say a double rifle.

    I don't want to give my opinion on every make and model and will certainly grant that others experiences and opinions will differ from mine. I have my own personal preferences and often will go with a less appealing look to get the functionality and reliability I need. Also AHR will provide that nice modified CZ with a good fitted and bedded synthetic stock. Won't they? McMillan does make one for the rifle.

    Just some random ramblings and my opinion about DGRifles. I do love a good 416.
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  19. #19
    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Thanks Murphy.

    Yes, I was thinking of the 416 Wby vs. 416 Rigby.

    I really do appreciate your good advice. I think a lot of things you say definitely make sense and favor the CZ/Rigby combo.

    I am going to spend a couple of weeks thinking about it.

    One thing I do like about the Mk V is the 54-deg bolt lift compared to most with 90-deg bolt lift on most actions. To me, that makes it a little faster and smoother to rechamber and fire than most rifles.

    One thing I just don't get is why the good Rigby ammo is 50% more expensive than, say, 460 Wby ammo. It makes no sense to me.

    That's not decisive, but it's a factor: after buying the AHR and shooting 10 boxes to familiarize myself well with it, I've spent about $1,200 more on gun plus ammo than with the Wby option. And essentially, for now, I work too many hours to be able to continue to do that, spend time with the family, and also take up hand-loading. I think I will wait a bit to begin doing that. So, for now, I'm stuck with factory ammo.

    Also, another thing in the back of my mind is that I could always drop the Wby in a stock like this later:



    I was leaning Rigby; now I'm leaning Wby; but I'll probably shift a few more times. I just blow in the wind on this one.

  20. #20

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    I looked back at your original post and really like the looks of the modfied CZ.

    I have a blaser R93 and a 416 rem safari barrel. It's light, easy to carry all day long and very accurate. Price wise, you could probably get set up for 3 to 4 thousand with a Blaser Professional stock. Price really depends on the options/barrels you choose.

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