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Thread: 358 norma barrel twist

  1. #1

    Default 358 norma barrel twist

    Hi I'm new and finally found the button so I can ask a question....I have a 358 Norma Magnum with a 1 in 10 twist.....what grain of bullets is this gun designed for?? what BEAST is she poised for? In the past I would have simply, thought of what grain of bullet I wanted to shoot, looked up the powders and bullet types and just load or bought a box off the self....... However I think I have come to the conclusion, that the barrel length and twist are the leading factors that the gun was made for.........number of twists per foot, designed to stabilize the approximet grains of a bullet. I originally was looking for reloading data, so I could reload my cases, not finding much info, let alone decent 35 cal bullets, and PRIMERS>>>>>> I realized that looking at all the data shows numerous powders and bullet weights...not to my supprise....I then had a conversation about barrel twist so I thought this would be the place to bring up the subject. Rather than load rounds that are not match the gun or to say allow it to perform at it's maximum potential.........all comments welcome, thanks...

  2. #2
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    Default Welcome to the Forum

    I don't have one or reload for it but there are some out here that certainly will respond. If we are lucky Murphy will comment on it. Tell us about the rifle.
    Here is a start.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.358_Norma_Magnum
    http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpa...?CaliberID=190

  3. #3
    Member aksheephuntress's Avatar
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    Default

    -Hi,-I first read your question last night, yet, wasn't sure how to respond-(I own, and hunt with, a .358 Norma Mag)-

    PRDATR has some good links to look over...and, yes, I agree- Murphy would be your best bet-
    -also, several other guys that frequent the reloading room would most definitely have some good insight for you on this, as well-

    -wonderful caliber!-in my opinion, highly underated; yet-as you have figured, hard to find ammo for-

    ...some things I was wondering about your rifle, that in my opinion have some bearing on what you are ultimately seeking for, in an answer; (moreso, than your concern with barrel twist, although twist does play a basic factor; yet, each and every rifle has it's particular idiosychnrosies.....):

    have you shot it yet?....and, if so, what ammo?-
    -what brought you to decide on this caliber- and, the Norma in particular?...
    -what do you hunt?
    -is it a custom? ...-what action ?

    -mine is on a 1903 Springfield action,rechambered from a .35 cal Whelen-
    -I shoot 250 grain factory rounds (the rifle seems to prefer Oryx)- also, I have a bunch of 250 & 300 gr handloads I play around with, from the previous owner -(if you consider periodic shoulder abuse a form of twisted fun-lol-)
    -I had my eye on this rifle for 2 years, then finally had the opportunity to buy it...it's kind of unique; Griffin and Howe scope side mount, peep sight-
    -when in the field, I load with the 250 gr-
    -more than adequate for any bear encounter-

    -wait for these other guys' input and advice...
    -I am no reloading person...-just a .358 Norma Mag gal who enjoys this caliber, and this particular rifle...

    --have fun (and stay safe!)with your Norma-
    -and, welcome to the Alaska Outdoor forums...

    ....a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed....

  4. #4

    Smile 358 norma

    Hi...I bought this rifle about 5 months ago at a local Gun shop where it had been sitting for over a year and a half. I had been looking to buy or build a gun for some time, as I have been working on my in laws toys and fixing them. It was sitting no doubt for the area it was located in and NO BIG GAME in the immediate area, not too mention they most likely new the cost and difficulty in buying ammo. When I found it, It really fit like a glove.....and the stock was gorgeous SO I knew I was going to get it, Its built on the FN Belgian action of what date Im not sure, but Im pretty sure its not of the 1600 husky series, there is no markings from any known manufacturer, So i figured its a custom gun. The 22 inch barrel is magnaported... and shaping of the stock, bedding and the fitting of the action into the stock all looked first rate to me!!!(I'm blind) I really thought someone had put a lot of thought time craftsmenship and money into this gun, I thought the parts alone would be worth far more than the $500 that I paid for it!!!..........In studing the 358 I came across this site as it seems one of the only places who openly talk and enjoy the calibur.. I could only find one box of 250 gr Norma ORYX and we went into the countryside to pull a few triggers and hammer a few shoulders LOL.. I think it was the blasts concussion they felt and really opened there eyes!!! Me too when they shot......WAS THAT FUN!!! out of bullets now so for some months I have been reading and weighing all the info I can to best understand this gun and its design and its need to be the most accurate I can get it..ballistics, twist loads and harmonics all play apart so I was wondering what others have been doing to get the most out of there 358's.. Here in Montan we can go for Moose Bear Elk and Big Horn sheep, most of the deer are small,..I have a Burris scope which will most likely be the one I use an NcStar 10x40x40 is mounted now it looks like a wild Tactical sniper rifle LOL...The more I look at this gun I can see the love they put into this fine gun, I certainly appreciate it..and want to learn more..not sure if they will let me post pictures of it as I have just joined......Thanks for your interest and hope to hear more on the 358 subject!!!

  5. #5

    Default

    You will probably get more responses on the subject if you move this thread or repost it on the Shooting forum. I am a 358 Norma shooter as well but am fairly new to the caliber myself and there are others on the shooting forum who are far more experienced than me.

    I have never had any factory ammo for mine. I have loaded my own 180, 200, and 250 gr Hornady's, 225 gr Accubonds, 200 gr hardcasts, and a few other misc bullets. It is an extremely versatile round capable of much more than just heavy magnum duty. It can be loaded down quite easily to more mild mannered levels.

    My gun wears a 22" heavy contour barrel with a 1 in 14" twist. So far I have used H-4895 and IMR 4350 powders mostly but have plans to try out several more.

  6. #6
    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Default

    I'd try some 250-grain bullets and see what they do. You sure the rifle doesn't have a 1 in 12" twist? That's what my pac-nor barrel has. I'm feeding my 358 Norma Mag 225-grain Swift A-Frames.

  7. #7

    Default 358 norma barrel twist

    on the bottom side of the barrel it's stamped 1-10, I have 250gr Nosler Partions I will load, with either H414 or IMR 4064, I can't find RL 15 here..

  8. #8
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    With the 1-10 twist, you can stabalize all the way up to the 310 gr woodleighs.

    Due to the high velocity of the 358 norma, I'd stick with 225 or 250 gr barnes X, 250 gr swift a-frames, and 280 gr swift a-frames. I think you'll find the conventional cup/core bullets just aren't up to the norma velocities.

    I shot a 250 gr hornady rn from my 350 Rigby magnum @ 2700 fps. A close range neck shot on a deer nearly decapitated the animal. Very effective, but too soft of a bullet for that velocity, and the Norma can achieve 2800 fps with 250 gr bullets.

  9. #9

    Default 358 norma barrel twist

    I had suspected the barrel twist effected the stabilization of the bullet meaning, a faster twist can stabilize a larger or heaver bullet, WOULD a .005 or .010 freebore be adviseable for 358 caliber's??? does it play into the normal 35 cal reloading?? Many thanks to all your replies..Gene

  10. #10

    Default 358 Norma comments

    Paul is right on with his comments re: 1 to 10 twist

    I own a Schultz and Larsen chambered 358 Norma Mag. It is a beautiful bolt gun sporting a 24 inch bbl with a 1 in 12 twist. The gun wears a Schmidt and Bender 1.5 to 6 Variable scope sitting in Talley rings.

    The Norma cartridge company is a good place to learn a bit about this fine cartridge. http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=...=The%20Company

    I've been able to acquire 15 boxes or so of new, old stock Norma ammo, that is loaded with 250 grain Nosler Partition bullets. This load seems to be the standard load that Norma offered for years.

    As I've shot up the Norma factory loads I've been reloading with the Swift A-frame 280 grain bullets and and tend to like them the best for this magnum cartridge. http://www.swiftbullets.com/index.html

    I have tried the A-Square Lion Load soft point in 275 grain. Both bullets shoot well from my rifle. The A-Square Lion load bullet is also available in the same shape and weight as the soft point Lion Load but in a solid. It's an interesting concept to first load a couple of solids into the rifle, then a soft point for the first shot. In theory the first round does the damage on a broadside bear, the second and third round punches a bit deeper once that boar has swapped ends and you need a tailpipe shot. Considering the awesome power of this cartridge I tend to wonder if that particular strategy is really needed though. The A-frames really seem to do their job well.

    Reloading dies are readily available on Eb*y for the 358 Norma caliper.

    As for powder I've had some luck with Reloader 19 and 22. Frankly I don't see much difference in accuracy between the two powders.

    Your 1-10 twist should do well with the heavy for caliber weights, those above 250 grains, including the Woodleigh 310 grain.

    I wish the "Non Lead" bullet manufacturers would embrace the 35 caliber with a heavier bullet than the 225 grain presently offered. I've asked several of them to produce a heavier copper slug but I suspect they don't see an adequate market share to invest in the concept.

    You have a fine cartridge there, capable of handling any beast in North America providing the shooter does his job.
    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for the shadow is mine and so is the valley. Thy Glock and thy M14 comfort me in days of civil unrest and terror

  11. #11

    Default 358 norma barrel twist

    that was great reading, I have visited the Norma site a few times but missed the history stuff.... I have the dies, and most of what I need to reload, with what I can obtain, and swift a-frames are not locally found, and the price is up there, One could go with the North Fork bullet as well but its approaching 2 bucks a bullet....I'm trying to reload to keep the costs down after the first go round where everything costs more.....NOT TO BE A CHEAPSCAPE .but keep good quality and accuracy,and the price down which is why we reload anyway YES??? I agree with you that A-frames and Nosler seem to be at the top for the norma although many with the Wehlen and remingtons have no problem shooting the speer bullets, seeing that the 1 in 10 twist is involved......stabilizing heavier bullets what happens if you download to lighter bullets.......to hunt deer or antelope??? would you use lighter bullets?? I appreciate your reply's that I understand the versatility of this great caliber, many would just use a different gun......thanks Gene

  12. #12

    Default 358 Norma potential

    I would not compare much of what is discussed re: the 350 Remington and 35 Whelen bullet selections. At 358 Norma velocities those bullets suited for the "smaller" 358 calibers tend to explode a bit too violently. Sorry about the extra cost involved in the premium 358 Norma bullets. One suggestion I can make is what I personally do. I have signed up to the Midway e-blast email notification of sale pricing. Each week Midway sends me a notification of what is on sale. I search for the premium 358 Norma bullets like A-Frames, noslers or A-square Lion loads. They go on sale sometimes and I tend to load-up. (Now that I've told you there might not be any left for me. )

    You can of course load down to 35 Whelen velocities and use the less-than-premium bullets. But oviously you're not getting the full potential of the cartridge by doing that. And of course you can cast your own 35 caliper bullets using wheel weights for hard lead
    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for the shadow is mine and so is the valley. Thy Glock and thy M14 comfort me in days of civil unrest and terror

  13. #13

    Default

    that's one great understatement..........many a 35 whelen articles that seem to RULE in the 35 caliber, however I'm with you on that score. the 358 Norma is its own animal, and it's not widely available in all the choices that many calibers have...........downloading......would be a farsce.......meaning only...Norma has its greatest potentials as it is....not downloading.........my optimum.....was simply.........to learn........by the way, its not to find the cheapest way to load 358 Norma..........on the other hand.....Never would be to have bragging rights to such a caliber as this........I must say EX1811 your right on target for what im asking.. and thanks.......I also have another thread about freebore and if it affects/or needed for this calibere.....I look forward to your reply......Gene

  14. #14

    Default 358 free-bore

    The 358 freeboore issue is one better suited to persons of a much greter experience than I. Hopefully Murphy will join in to answer your question. That man is remarkable in his knowledge base of firearms detail.

    With my rifle the issue of free-bore is addressed in the context that I am limited by the overall cartridge length as per the magazine length capacity of the rifle. The chamber of each rifle is cut different and certainly I can not comment about your rifle. Ogive of the bullet also plays a big part in where the bullet will start to touch the grooves.

    It has been my experience through, that as you go up in the diameter of the bullet and consequently often the weight of that bullet, the little details like free-bore become less important. For me the larger calipers are more forgiving of the details to reloading than the little guys. Your experience may differ....but you'd do much better in asking one with a greater knowledge base than I.

    I also find that all my rifles shoot far better than I am personally capable of holding, particularly in hunting situations. There are many folks who have far greater natural talent to reach out to 500 yards plus and touch the exact spot than I. So, I limit myself to shorter distances that I am confident of. In past years I have had rifles that would not shoot to an acceptable hunting accuracy. Those rifles have found their way onto the used rifle marketplace.

    But back to your question about free-bore, I'd suggest you try to keep the cartridge length to the acceptable standards established by Norma and certainly to within that space in which your magazine will accomodate.
    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for the shadow is mine and so is the valley. Thy Glock and thy M14 comfort me in days of civil unrest and terror

  15. #15
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    A 358N at 1/10 twist will handle any 35cal bullet you can find for it. My load is a 250gr at 2880 and mine has a lot of freebore. Most actions are the limiting factor on oal. One of my manuals shows a 300gr at 2660fps if you can take the recoil. Cup and core bullets are a little soft for the 358 and will destroy some meat in a shoulder hit but have enough mass to penetrate anyways. Any 300 gr should work good if you can find them.

  16. #16
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    My old custom 358 Norma mag had a 1-10 twist rate. (I miss that rifle, selling it to some guy in Anchorage was one of the dumbest things I have ever done.)

    Anyway it really liked the 250 grain Speer spitzers and the 250 grain Nosler partition. She also liked the Kodiak Bonded 250 grain bullets, the old 275 grain Barnes originals, not so much.

    I used IMR-4350 and a CCI-250 magnum primer. While I managed to push some out at 2,880 fps, it turned out to be much more accurate at around 2,790 fps. he moose could not tell the difference.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  17. #17

    Default

    I loaded up a few rounds today, and Wondering about the freebore issue I decided to check the magazine length and seated the bullet so I still had a little room left in the magazine. I lamp blacked the bullet and sent her into the chamber thinking I would see some land marks there, but nothing noted,
    Being a 1 in 10 twist I'm thinking the chambers been cut to allow the longer 280gr and 310gr bullets and wouldn't seat into the lands when chambered......... so the shorter 250gr bullets must be farther back from the lands, I mic'ed the factory overall length at 3.340 I seated mine at
    3.360......I figured I would load a box with the extra .020 to see if I get any better accuracy, but its maybe too soon to play with that until I get the "who's" powder load down.....RL 15 is listed in the nosler #6 edition as the most accurate...but also lists at a slower FPS voloacity. (I know I can't speeel).........I'm more concerned with accuracy than I am trying to launch it at super sonic levels......If I can get the gun to shoot at its best, I can handle the rest LOL.....

    any body have any experience with RL 15??? Most post that H4350 seems to be the cream and float to the top by the majority.....thanks

  18. #18
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    Quit worring about the freebore and take it out and shoot it. No matter what bullet you use you probably won't get it very close to the rifling because of your mag length. It will probably shoot pretty good with a wide variaty of bullets and any powder close to a 4350.

  19. #19

    Default haven't started loading for mine but...

    I read that it likes as much 4350 you care to give it.
    Have some RL-15 to try as well though with my 250g Speers and Partitions.

  20. #20

    Default

    Rbuck your absolutely correct,, Magazine limits the total length, but it was good info I can apply to my other guns. I will take your advise on the 300 win mag case's to convert to 358, thanks all for your advise!!!

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