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Thread: Frustration and Problems Created by Gunsmiths and Manufacturers!

  1. #1

    Default Frustration and Problems Created by Gunsmiths and Manufacturers!

    I will use this to express outwordly my frustration at the Firearms industry as well as well meaning gusnsmith who is trying to eek out a living. My frustrations tends to stem from the sheer incompetance that they seem to exude when it comes to practical and long range shooting. Lets crunch on or pose a question. How many people by a firearm for hunting and actually shoot it more that twice three times a year? a large majority. Now how many of these people buy a firearm because they hunt and that is what they use it for? Then look at the adds from the likes of Best of the West, Oquirre gunsmithing, Christensen Arms lets even throw savage into the mix etc. etc. etc. I could go on

    these manufacturers advertise there uber long range pin hole poker taking game or supposedly taking game at 1000+ yards and brag up there rifles and how they shoot minute of angle at 1000 yards. and the same guy previously listed sees the add comes into buy said firearm so he can get his uber mondo scope with his special reticle and turret that can dial him in to 1000 yards. And then he never shoots the rifle and the only way the rifle in fact shoots minute of angle is if it is lock in a vice mounted on a tank on the surface of mars where gravity keeps everything solid. and then goes out and wounds and animal cant find it and proceeds to shoot another animal cuz oh I missed. and somehow the rifle all of a sudden makes him capable of shooting a mile with out any dicipline or practice. ugggggg! / then to make matters worse they use match bullets.......Match bullets!!!!! seriously!!!!!what makes you think thin jacketed hollow point match king will do the job at hand and do it ethically.

    Now do these people really think its ethical to do so and stimulate people into thinking they are colonel hathcock or Tubbs because they " have a 300 super light speed triple threat animal hammer" and that cartridge means they can shoot anything out to 1000+ yards........FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I love shooting long range and would hope these guys all exercise the dicipline necessary to shoot those distances but i would hope they would realize that adn ethical clean kill is more important the latest super zinger mag and status of trying and maybe once in a blue moon succeeding in actually harvesting game at distances beyond 300 yards. Last is "SHOOTING" an animal at 1000 yards really hunting or is s trying to get as close as you can and doing it humaely and ethically more important.

    K im done. sorry had to get that off my chest.

  2. #2
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Make your next pot of coffee decaf

    It's not exactly a new problem, manufacturers make products that many or most of the customers can't use to the ability of the equipment, no different than cars or motorcycles.

    Even w/o that advertising, there are still idiots that won't learn to shoot, and think they are fine blasting away at game at long range.

    On the other hand, the average yahoo that has trouble holding paper of plate at 100 yds isn't much of a threat to wounding game at 500 yds, as they can't even get close to making a wounding shot at that range.

    I'm glad to have guns today that are as accurate as they are. I've had little problem getting factory rifles to put 3 shots into a 1" group or better at 100 yds, and some will approach 1/2" at 100 yds.

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    Default cartridges also..

    Then there are the super magnum cartridges short and long and ultra in both rifle and pistol. The hype is to sell new guns and ammo - not to make good shooters with their existing guns.

    I've been teeling people for over 40 years: get something you can afford to shoot -and practice practice practice. There is no substitution for shooting and the shooting needs to be spread out over many sessions. 100 rounds shot at 5 sessions of 20 rds each is much better than 2 sessions of 60 rds each. This is especially true with heavy recoiling guns.

    The expensive of hunting is another big factor: someone who spends $1000s want to shoot SOMETHING. The ethics of hunting too often lose out to justification of the expense.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    just a thought here but i will take a really good hunter and a .35 Rem over a nitwit and a $2,000.00 gun any day. If you know how to hunt you dont need to take 500yrd shots. People are trying to buy hunting skills in many cases. You see the guy with every fishing gadget and a 900.00 rod getting out fished by a guy who knows what he is doing and avg gear. the guy with the 900.00 rod tried to make himself some skills. I will take skills over gidgets and gizmoz every day.

  5. #5

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    the first and only time I have been to africa, I was able to shoot a cow buffalo on the hunt. I shot her at 65 yards, and once more at a mere 15 when she jumped up to run away and die. The thrill of being that close was something I will never ever forget and would not trade that experience for any long range kill no matter the animal....


    ......(except for maybe a 60" marco polo )
    375 Ruger Hawkeye...Mice to Moose, Impala to Buffalo....1 GUN.....WORLDS PURSUIT

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    I'm not sure what the facination of attempting to make a 1000yd shot on a game animal is. Maybe bragging rights. I certainly wouldn't brag about attempting some thing that unsportsman like even if I was dumb enough to try and accidently made the shot. People that consistantly shoot MOA at 1000yds are not using hunting rifles and are using solid benches and match bullets. A good rifleman with a good hunting rifle shooting from field positions (not prone) with a range finder could probably keep most shots in a 3ft circle. That is not me. If I see an animal at 1000yds, I should be able to get at least 300 or 400yds closer without even calling myself a hunter. Now 600 yds is still a long shot, too long for me. With the exception of sheep or goats you should be able to get within 300 to 400yds and probably much closer. You are right in that the industry in trying to sell guns and gear are making claims for their equiptment that can only be met by a very few hunters. If I went to a bench rest match and traded rifles with a top shooter I'm sure I would still lose to him. Good equiptment will never make up for a poor shooter. Close encounters are the best kind. And the most ethical.

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    Member gunbugs's Avatar
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    Default It's called "marketing"

    If you buy my stuff, it'll make you cool and magically able to outshoot national champion shooters! NO SKILL REQUIRED. The people who buy into these ads are the same ones who believe if they buy the fanciest running shoes, they'll be able to win marathons. JUST IGNORE THEM.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

  8. #8

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    I agree with everything said. Nobody can shoot at a game animal at 1000 yards with a hunting rifle and have any degree of certainty that they are going to make a clean kill! It is a hope and a poke that most of the time results in a clean miss but far to often results in a crippled animal. I have no time for it myself!

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    Hunting at 1000 yards, not for me, I prefer to be under 300 so I get better bullet placement and cleaner kills. Some people do have the skill, be they are few, then there are others that think they have the skill.

    But shooting out ranges between 300 and a 1000 is great practice. If you know your equipment well enough to target practice out to 1000 yards, you should be capable of a human kill at hunting distances under 300 yards. Developing the skill to maintain minute of angle shots at distances longer than you hunt will develop your abilities, and teach you your limitations.

    There have been a few places I have been that had ranges set up out that far. Those ranges encouraged more shooting and experimentation with my rifles to learn the scope adjustments and shooting skills needed to hit the targets. Thus, taking full advantage of the manufacturers product and teaching myself to know my hunting limitations.

    I don't begrudge the manufacturer for making a better product, we all demand quality products for our money. It is on us, the hunters, to practice with those products to be capable of knowing our limits and to stay within them.

  10. #10
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    Hunting at 1000 yards, not for me, I prefer to be under 300 so I get better bullet placement and cleaner kills. Some people do have the skill, be they are few, then there are others that think they have the skill.

    But shooting out ranges between 300 and a 1000 is great practice. If you know your equipment well enough to target practice out to 1000 yards, you should be capable of a human kill at hunting distances under 300 yards. Developing the skill to maintain minute of angle shots at distances longer than you hunt will develop your abilities, and teach you your limitations.

    There have been a few places I have been that had ranges set up out that far. Those ranges encouraged more shooting and experimentation with my rifles to learn the scope adjustments and shooting skills needed to hit the targets. Thus, taking full advantage of the manufacturers product and teaching myself to know my hunting limitations.

    I don't begrudge the manufacturer for making a better product, we all demand quality products for our money. It is on us, the hunters, to practice with those products to be capable of knowing our limits and to stay within them.
    Excellent post...

  11. #11

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    Nice post, I generally agree with everthing that has been covered. I am surprised the Montana Rifleman hasn't chimed in yet....

  12. #12

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    Im glad to have the support of real marksmen. i was just frustrated i sell guns and deal with every type of sportman there is. i have a new 325 wsm and it is a great gun however. I will gladly take my 257 roberts to hunt anything and everything in north america except maybe bears and moose. And that is becase i have tons of experience and i dont hesitate to shoot 3-400 yards with it at antelope as I am very confident in my abilities. with that gun cartridge combo. though with deer and elk that is cut in half.

    dont get me rong i love fine firearems that and an accurate firearm at that though i would place my 257 roberts against any out there at 300 yard and it is an old ruger round top first generation with a redfield fixed 6 scope. this is my go to gun.

    i just had to vent because i see all the loonies who shoot once a year want to go out with there uber magnum and shoot a deer the next year at 1000 yards. lol crazy thanks all for letting me vent.

  13. #13
    Member MARV1's Avatar
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    Shooting at that distance isn't called fair chase IMHO. Kudos for making a great long range "target" rifle, but it still isn't hunting.
    The emphasis is on accuracy, not power!

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    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    And once the animal is found, the 'hunting' it is over...now you've moved on to another skill called 'stalking'....

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    Ahhh- Hunting- stalking- shooting- working! I see the pattern.

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    All your problems have been solved, but you need vary deep pockets and the knowledge of who to use. For get anybody local doing the work, it takes a large crowd of shooters who specialize in your sport to be able to support a gunsmith that has the kind of skills that can build and equip a shooter with the skills you are in need of. Many Shooters that hunt also have moved to larger calibers because of wind and jacket thickness. the .338 RUM being high on the list, the .338Lapua being high on the list also. Ballistic computers used along with the rifle you are shooting. Optics for the shooting you want to do are a huge factor. Socking is a consideration of high importance. What the boys that do the thousand yard egg shoot is getting close to what you want to see. Dan Lilja is a guy that spent a lot of time and money in the same pursuit. You have to get in the crowd that does this for a living and there are a lot of them. Find out what they recommend and the people that do this kind of building of gear. First round hits can be made past a thousands yards but you our sure out on a limb without the gear and skills.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Ive done some TARGET shooting (tactical rifle stuff) ar 1k in the lower 48. It is a ton of fun, but it proved the level of dificulty to me. At 1k a light breeze will wreek havick. I can't imagine Doing that across a couple of valleys Up here.

    That said, I think the long range claims in the ads are the same as the bikinis in car or hamburger commercials don't really have anything to do with what we will use the product for, but they DO get our attention.

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    Member alaskabliss's Avatar
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    I understand stalking, I bow hunt, but lets not take credit away from the people who do have the skills to take animals at long range. We should narrow this down to the people who can't shoot distance but think they can because they bought an expensive rifle, they are the dangerous ones. also remeber that a rifle that can group at a thousand yards can really group at 300 with the right person behind the trigger. I know I try to buy the best rifle/scope combo I can afford then practice year round but I refuse to shoot past 400yds.

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    New member George's Avatar
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    Default sad but true

    Wapiti00,
    You hit the nail on the head! Amazing how wrapped around the accuracy axle shooters get about shooting at paper yet think nothing of shooting beyond their skills, equipment, conditions at game- just a moving paper target I guess
    Hunt close, shoot straight, shoot once

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