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Thread: Sheep Harvest in unit 12

  1. #1
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    Default Sheep Harvest in unit 12

    Sheep Harvest Reports & Harvest Info shows Resident and non-resident success as follows for Unit 12:

    2006
    57 successful residents
    42 successful non-res

    2005
    66 successful residents
    68 " non -res

    2004
    84 successful residents
    58 successful non-res

    The point here is to show that residents that want to hunt here are able to do it. Why in the world would some of you want to make access easier by forcing Transporters to take everyone who comes in their door into this area?
    Or any area in the state for that matter. As I keep saying....Figure out how to get it done just as these residents have. If everyone can demand access, then it would end up as a draw area. Leave it tough to get into. I know for a fact that some of these hunters come in by 40-MILE. They are able to use their best judgement as to how many and where based on factors such as business and an area already occupied by other hunters.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    after talking to one of the big guides in unit 12, he says he sees quiet a few resident hunters each fall. fly in from mccarthy. funny how this whole situation got blown outa the water by one comment. all that and more resident hunters are killing sheep there than non resi. good post with some good information, rather than specualtion and emotion. thanks!

  3. #3
    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default Thats a lot of country

    Your not making a point, you provided stats for all of unit 12, I have hunted sheep in a few spots of unit 12, and sure there are rams around.
    What you need to do is break unit 12 down in the minor units within unit 12; then look at the harvest report for those minor units, for example, in 12Z904, 12Z906, 12Z1000, 12Z1003, combined there were 53 rams taken in 2006. You said there were 99 rams taken in all of 12, so most of the rams shot in 06 came from those minor units I listed, and it should be no surprize that 75% of those 53 rams were taken by non residents (guided). Those minor units I listed are all in the same areas of 12 that the guides are operating in

    The Point some where trying to make is that there are sections of 12 and 11 that charter sevices like ++++++++ wont fly you into only because of the guides. Call +++++and ask if they will take you to Sheep or Snag creeks, the answer will be no, ask them to take you to Baultoff creek or Blue lake and the answer will be yes. If you look at the havest repots fo those minor units, you will se that the majority of rams taken are by residents.

    It doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out what areas are being heavely guided and which are not. Charters like +++++++++++ air wont fly you to these hot areas because of guiding in those areas, and they dont try to hide that fact
    Last edited by fullkurl; 12-30-2006 at 09:46. Reason: no names please-fairness

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    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default it is what it is

    Al though Id like to hunt those areas, there are lots of country up here to hunt sheep. I think a better way for the charters to reply other than saying"we dont fly there because of guiding" is just to say, that area is booked full for the next couple years, in essence it is.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    if you called 40 mile and asked them to drop you on some other resident hunters and they told you NO would that be the same issue to everyone or only because someone is making money and they won't drop hunters on top of them?? or is this the same ol' double standard that only applys to guides?

    just because a guide has an established camp there and is already hunting the area dont' mean their in cahoots with the air taxi.
    what if a resdient had an established camp and they wouldn't fly in there....are the residents in cahoots and paying off the transporters then too???
    curious if it goes both ways or only one....

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    So you are willing to let all of us non-guides lock up an area just the same, or are you only willing to allow us to try because you know that we haven't nearly the invested capital to pull it off?

    If I happened to find your honey hole and set up a permanent camp, would you respect that for 20yrs.? So why should we accept it from a guide?

    It is a double standard on your part and you are attempting to hide that. Why don't you just admit that you think that guides have more claim to set up a permanant camp and influence air charters by virtue of their greater vested resources?

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    Chignik, if you think those harvets percentages are fair then well I guess thats your opinion. Mine is that it shouldn't be 50/50 between res and non-res on anything, reg harvets or draw. What those percentages tell me is that half of Unit 12 is locked up to guiding, and thats a pretty big area, those arent good numbers to me at all. But were not going there again, I am trying to stay in a happy mood, all this negative debating just gets me down. <grin>

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    am i willing?? lol man you read into things wayy to deep.

    yes, if you had a camp set up, i woudn't go there,....for 40 years. why would i want to hunt next to someone else?? don't make any sense. if you set up a camp good for you and if the air taxi leaves you alone...good for you. it don't mean you have something worked out with them.
    my guide camps are differnt that most because i'm the only guide, i don't contact out my work and i dont' take up much space. ironicly "MY" air taxi flys residents to same places i go, great source of information, they tell me how the residents did and i'm happy for them. i don't own any land out there, i don't own the animals out there and i don't own the airplanes that fly me there.

    But lets be realistic...no ones gonna change your mind about guides and the situation we are discussing. you seem to have a pretty good feel on a situation you know very little about, aren't invloved in and haven't seen the other side of the tracks. so there is very little point in even trying to explain anything, since you read into almost everything that people post, blow it outa proportion and feed on it. as you will this post....
    gotta love emotion...it steers peoples lives and sometimes their mouths.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    Akcub, just because there is a nonresident harvest of half the critters means that is locked up by guides? what about all the other game units where half the take is by nonresidents? does that mean the same thing?
    I think we all outa be yelling about the way kodiak has the non resident tags set up....theres a resident screwing system there!! fat chance you or i drawing a tag to hunt the kodiak national wildlife refugee...non residnt, has an average about around 80 percent chance of drawing his first time out...
    but people don't worry about bears since they aren't as high on the social ladder as sheep.

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    BRWNBR that one (Kodiak Brown Bear Draws for non-res) pisses me off to no end too, but like I said , I am trying to stay in a happy mood, please dont get me ranting again! <grin>

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    i hear ya cub, but for the sake of principal i think the kodiaks a bigger and more real issue that the sheep in unit 12. obviously residents are hunting unit 12 wether we all think they can only hunt in areas dictated by guide activites or not. but on kodiak, its cut and dried. you a non res, you've got a great shot at hunting bear, but its gonna cost you...you a res...good luck someday you'll get a tag. then you'll have to fly into and area that the guides have locked up!!! lol here we go again!!! lol

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    happy new year too cub...

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    "But lets be realistic...no ones gonna change your mind about guides and the situation we are discussing. you seem to have a pretty good feel on a situation you know very little about, aren't invloved in and haven't seen the other side of the tracks. so there is very little point in even trying to explain anything, since you read into almost everything that people post, blow it outa proportion and feed on it. as you will this post....
    gotta love emotion...it steers peoples lives and sometimes their mouths."

    I think that the real humor in this is that you know nothing about me and are more than willing to pidgeon hole me, but then I guess I am not a guide.

    I respond to what people post of their free will and they present as fact. I guess you are suggesting that i should be more cynical of their posts and less of yours.

    I think that enough information has been presented here on either side of things to get the picture of what is going on up there.

    To summarize (you tell me where I am wrong):

    An individual exerts his influence upon flight services and thereby effectively restricts access to certain sheep areas. (whether by virtue of the fact that he is their main source of revenue, or the old boys club) He resents residents who take it upon themselves to get there (unless we are to believe that the personal account of a confrontation here is fictitous).

    You are okay with this because, hey it's not illegal and heck, I don't know what I am talking about. I have a problem with it. Not with the flight services as they are within their rights. I have a problem with the individual who would actively intimidate and confront folks to keep them from public resources. True he is not violating the law either, still doesn't sit well with me.

    If you are so fine with me doing what he is doing up there in your neck of the woods then why don't you take the same advantages to increase your business and restrict other hunters? You admit that you don't do it, so you must have a problem with it.

    So why wont you say as much? I do not have an issue with any other guide nor guides in general. It is you who has type cast me, not me type casting guides. You post for me one place in which I have type cast all guides so I will know why you are so uptight about my posts.

  14. #14
    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Did you find where I type cast all guides yet? Did you find where I condemned the flight service yet?

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    Default Still Chucklin'

    Excellent points, AKHunter02!

    Respectfully Chignik,
    I'm five for my last five hunts with legal rams in unit 12. You're preachin to the choir, guy.
    My outspokeness on this issue is for hunters as a whole, not so much for myself. I have no problem with the guides workin the area hard, but they need to understand ITS NOT THEIR LAND!

    This issue is getting beaten ad nauseum, imho. But I am grateful its come to light. Some of us just wanted it known that some large tracts of public land (in this case much east of Cooper Pass) is a tough hunt, not because of sheep numbers, but because of hostillity and lack of access due to air transporters AND MAIL PLANES (often the staple of hunters for access into villages) that won't take you in due to the ole boy clubs.

    I find a way, because I go higher, faster and farther. By doing so I usually avoid other human contact on my hunts.
    Happy New Year!

    F.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    well rain gull perhaps we've pidgeonholed each other on this one.

    my kicker is no one knows that the guide(s) have asked the air taxis not to fly in there. I talked to one of them and he did NOT ask them to stay out of his area, that was stricktly the flight service, but yet he and or guides like him are taking the hit for it. there very well might be guides who have confronted the air taxis and asked them not to fly in there. and YES i have a problem with that! but no one knows where excatly that is the case..or least i haven't seen it, because i asked one of them. what seems to be going is the ASSUMPTION that guides are asking air taxis to stay out..and that is what i'm sticking up for. until we know for sure thats the case then i'm not gonna bash them for something that we don't know they even did! and if there is one guide or two or whatever who IS doing that, then by all means, blackball them.

    I won't do that in my area, soley based on that fact i'm an alaskan, its a great state and i think everyone should be able to enjoy it, res and non res alike. i don't need an area to myself, or a corner cut off from the world. a little competition in my area would only make me hunt harder for my clients. People now seem to think they need special treatment sometimes when everything that is and was is from sweat and labor. nothing wrong with making it on your own two feet.

    so basicly my problem with these thread is all about the assumptions as to what guides are doing. some don't need to do it, air taxi won't fly in there cause they don't want their clients hunting in a circus of people. some guides might be asking cause they are afraid it'll hurt their little piece of cake. some don't care and its just the air taxi's making that decision.
    we dont know the story, thats what i meant about not know the situation and as a guide my perspective on this thread is a little different. i'm a resident and a guide so i have two point of views. the ohter side of the tracks so to speak.
    if we had facts of what the guides have or haven't done, that would be differnt, then i'd be condeming that just like everyone else would. but we don't know whats going on between the air taxi's and guides and it seems no one wants to give an benifit of the doubt on this.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    I have not bashed anyone for anything. I have stated as much time and again and even stated to you directly that from everything you say, you are a completely ethical guide. I have no problem with anyone that I know of. I do however have to respond to the allegations here and say that if they are true then the intimidation is just wrong. That is all I have said in relation to a guide or guides in general. I have also advocated for a draw to allow the biologists to control smaller populations without any necceasry impact on prices or drawinf success, but that has not really been a contentious issue.

    No hard feelings, I just want to be abundantly clear that I am only against the alleged intimidation and that does not extend even to the individual in question as I do not have any hard evidence that anything has occured, only debating principle and a hypothetical that may have occured.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Again I would like to read all of my assumptions and attacks of either the individual in question (who I keep restating I do not know about) or the Air Taxis? I simply cannot find them.

    I simply have not made any assumptions nor accusations towards anyone. I cannot understand why it has to be so contentious to argue a hypothetical.

    You seem to keep reiterating the air taxi issue, but (how many times I dont know) I have repeatedly reaffirmed their rights to deny service to anyone.

    I have but one issue with this that requires no personal knowledge of the situation nor perspective from the other side of the tracks and that is that anyone, guide or resident or leprachan that uses threats or intimidation to essentially lock up resources unto himself is in the wrong and I am opposed to such.

    I am quite willing to catch heck for what I have posted, but I find it hard to believe the amount being hurled in response to things that I defy anyone to show me where I have posted.

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    I just want to clarify something. I have made statements like "I cant get anyone to take me in there" and some have responded that someone will I am not looking hard enough. And I'll explain it this way, I lived in Delta Junction for the last 3 years. Every day I look out my window from home and work and I start my day by seeing the mountains (the Alaska Range) and my statement about noone being willing to take me in there stems from the fact that there are several air charters right there in town that will not take me in there. I could probably drive 350 miles to Anc,Palmer, Wasilla and find someone who will fly me in there for $1500-$2000 and in the end I drove 350 miles to pay someone near $2K to fly me back to within 50 miles of my home, thats just plain silly, so yes it can be done but whos checkbook is that deep? I guess the better way to word it is that the air charters within reasonable flying distance end up unofficially connected to locking up of certain areas because they are also more cost effective for the guides to use. For the record I have never stated that I tried to get into Unit 12 via Air Charter and couldnt, that post started from a thread I found on AR. My difficulties have been in teh last 3 years trying to get flown into certain places in Unit 20 that I can actually see from my house. But I knew Frank and some others would know who this outfit was.

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    Default hmmn

    I must be hunting in the wrong GMU if there are that many sheep taken each year.

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