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Thread: bulls w/o antlers, cows, calfs all for dinner or none for all?

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default bulls w/o antlers, cows, calfs all for dinner or none for all?

    Even though this will prolly end up in the management thread i started it here to get the interest up... and i would like an opinion if you hunt moose..


    I had a few meetings this afternoon, and have some questions as to common ground.

    coming before the BOG this month is a antler less hunt there are many proponents and many OPPONENTS to these hunts.

    the pros...

    Moose is currently the only hunt you may not take a calf. even in any caribou hunt with a limit of one YOU MAY shoot a calf.

    most deer hunts with the exception of CA and maybe another state.. you may shoot a fawn or doe... CA says no spotted fawns.

    cow hunts is to pull the surplus of cows to keep the bull cow ratios.

    all calf's are surplus if you don't take the cows attached to them leaving all the breeding stock...

    coming before the board is you may take a cow.... or a calf but not a cow accompanied by a calf... this would mean one could harvest the calf, his buddy could take the cow. but no calf will be left orphan...

    the biggest issue i hear is the WINTER antler less hunts allow the taking of bulls who have shed.

    opponents argue that by allowing the antler less bull hunts they are harvesting the large breeding bull who shed first.

    winter antler less hunt affect trappers and the trap lines as folks flee to field and stream for meat.

    taking cows is taking breeding stock,

    one argument is that in the fall cow permit hunts the tags state you MAY NOT hunt a bull... WHY????? can you do it in the winter???




    SO!!!!!!!!????? what is the real deal.. not HOW YOU IMAGINE moose bambie... WHY do some prefer cow hunts why do some despise them???

    this all goes to the board of game in 22 days, i expect the only hotter issue will be the Denali park wolf buffer zone... maybe some sea duck remains too.

    personally i see the benefit in both sides of the argument so am some what confused by the emotion that runs so deep why can i shoot a calf caribou with acceptance or a doe deer.... have folks willing to harvest bear cubs...but moose are exempt from reason of mind, for some and reason for dinner for others?


    Where do we find common ground that all but the tree hugger will be happy? there is no shortage of guys that will harvest a cow, as well no shortage of cow supporters






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    As to Caribou Calfs, I can say thus;

    Caribou Calfs are VERY tender. Good meat for the very old as well as the very young. Ever see an Elder or small child choke on meat? Caribou calfs meat just falls apart.


    A lined Mens parka under construction

    My daughter in girls Parkee

    The Wifes relatives, the two ladys on the left and Right are wearing Caribou Calf (Peiced work), and the lady in the middle has a fasionable Reindeer parkee.



    Caribou hair is hollow, and even when wet or damp, they will help you float in water, and not lose any insulation value when that way...just take it off, let the moisture freeze, smak it off and put it back on.
    Caribou calf skins are light and durable. When my wife makes a Parkee from a Bull/Cow skin, it will shed hairs, enough that buy Spring, its fairly usless, but good for Summer as its lost so much hair.....
    when she makes one from Calf skins, we hand them down to our younger children when they are outgrown, with years of use. heck, we just up and sell them, buy gas, and hunt again, getting the kids new Parkees while getting premium prices for the used ones.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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  3. #3
    Premium Member Wyo2AK's Avatar
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    Default Just a few thoughts...

    ...for what it's worth. (You get what you pay for )

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    all calf's are surplus if you don't take the cows attached to them leaving all the breeding stock...

    coming before the board is you may take a cow.... or a calf but not a cow accompanied by a calf... this would mean one could harvest the calf, his buddy could take the cow. but no calf will be left orphan...
    I'd happily harvest a calf moose if given the opportunity. For a number of reasons. As you've already alluded to, there's no guarantee that a calf is going to live long enough to reproduce. The cow, on the other hand, is obviously already old enough to reproduce and probably more likely to survive the year to reproduce again. I don't have any sources to back this up, just a gut feeling... the life of a calf moose has a hard learning curve.

    Additionally, having not yet reproduced myself at this point, the meat provided by a calf moose would be plenty to get me and my lady through the winter. Plus I can definitely see the benefits of shooting a calf in regard to packing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    the biggest issue i hear is the WINTER antler less hunts allow the taking of bulls who have shed.

    opponents argue that by allowing the antler less bull hunts they are harvesting the large breeding bull who shed first.
    I'm curious, are the antlerless hunts you're discussing proposed for winter or fall or both? I can see the concern here, as it's definitely the bigger bulls that typically shed earlier in the year. A marginal 50-inch bull that may have been passed on for not being 100% legal in the fall season may be killed in a late antlerless hunt for the misfortune of having shed too early.

    But I wonder if the impact of some incidental harvest of antlerless bulls in a winter season would really have a noticeable effect on moose populations. Maybe cow permits should allow you to shoot a spike/fork/50" bull during the specified season in that area just to make things more fair compared to a winter antlerless hunt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    one argument is that in the fall cow permit hunts the tags state you MAY NOT hunt a bull... WHY????? can you do it in the winter???
    As you mentioned, cow permits are typically to manage the cow:bull ratio, or decrease populations in areas where numbers have sky rocketed (freshly burned areas... delta jct in past years, for instance) and F&G is worried about a population crash.

    I'd think the logic behind not being able to hunt a bull if you draw a cow permit is just to make people choose. So the whole state doesn't apply for a cow permit with the mindset of "I can still hunt for a bull, but if that doesn't work out I'll fall back on this cow permit." I could see cow permits getting really tough to draw if you could still whack a big bull that season if the opportunity presented itself.

    There were some late antlerless elk seasons in WY that I know led to killing of a few old bulls who shed early (elk of course don't typically shed as early as moose, but it happens). I've always thought the "antlerless" vs "cow only" was kind of to cover their butts and provide a loophole so if someone did shoot a bull that had already shed thinking it was a cow, they didn't have to punish them over a (maybe?) reasonable mistake.

    They shoot a lot of calf moose in Finland. Heck, they just shoot a lot of moose in Finland. By one account, they may harvest more than half of the total moose population in a given year.
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    A moose is a moose. If a hunter wants a calf, fine with me. The bears and wolves don't discriminate. Taking a cow with a calf, orphaning the calf, doesn't seem right. The calf is doomed and no human use will come of it. Take the calf first? Good by me.

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    Member Smokey's Avatar
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    Default Too Many Unknowns

    Vince,
    We have late season antlerless only deer season here in IL - unfortunatley I think a high % of button bucks are taken - thus reducing our buck numbers down the road which I am against.
    I could see some potential for that to happen to your bull moose that have dropped antlers but will there really be that many tags issued do you think and filled to create such a scenario?
    Just taking a blind dart throw I would guess maybe less than 5% would be bull kills - I am not sure that would effect a healthy herd. They may have that much mortality from old age and bad health anyway.
    My guess would be a trial area would have to be set up and monitored to have any useful input as this has so many "what if's" ....
    I know in Canada where I hunt a lot they regularly take calfs, very limited cow tags given out and not sure they have seen any problems. Increase in deer populations has killed off more moose than any other influence there.
    Randy

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    As to Caribou Calfs, I can say thus;

    Caribou Calfs are VERY tender. Good meat for the very old as well as the very young. Ever see an Elder or small child choke on meat? Caribou calfs meat just falls apart.


    A lined Mens parka under construction

    My daughter in girls Parkee

    The Wifes relatives, the two ladys on the left and Right are wearing Caribou Calf (Peiced work), and the lady in the middle has a fasionable Reindeer parkee.



    Caribou hair is hollow, and even when wet or damp, they will help you float in water, and not lose any insulation value when that way...just take it off, let the moisture freeze, smak it off and put it back on.
    Caribou calf skins are light and durable. When my wife makes a Parkee from a Bull/Cow skin, it will shed hairs, enough that buy Spring, its fairly usless, but good for Summer as its lost so much hair.....
    when she makes one from Calf skins, we hand them down to our younger children when they are outgrown, with years of use. heck, we just up and sell them, buy gas, and hunt again, getting the kids new Parkees while getting premium prices for the used ones.
    ...beautiful pictures, Stranger!

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    I don't know why it is so hard to make it a cow only hunt. There are clear markings to help you tell the difference. Big dark moose, with du lap, penis, testicals, a dark rump and antler bases, then keep looking. Light moose, white rump/thigh area, no penis, no testicals, no antler bases and no calf then you are good to go. It's not like there is heavy foliage to make it hard to see them well. I don't have problem with taking calves of either sex since that would be harder to tell gender. As mentioned previously most calves do not survive(statistically different for different areas/years) while most cows do. Odds are that the calf would have become wolf/raven food anyway.

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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    One of the reason's explained to me that why they were considering this, is that they keep getting calf's reported that were thought to be cows.

    How do you tell a cow calf, from a cow?
    1. The nose is shorter
    2. They have a white spot on there shoulder about the size of a basketball.

    That's what I was told, I understand the nose, but the white spot I have to question.

    I think there biggest thing is that they can't detirmine where the calf will be when the cow is shot, so they say the heck with it and kill both. If they kill the calf first, so be it, If they kill the cow first, the calf is open game because it is not expected to survive.

    This came out of the Fairbank's A.C 2 years ago, and Delta was told to adopt the thought or come up with another.

    It's a non issue here now, just thought I'd let you know what I heard. The Delta cow hunt is closed down.

    Myself, I can spot a calf in an instant, but most people that are in the wood's for a short period of time can't.

    This really does'nt have anything to do with a calf hunt, it's the mistaken moose that started this because people are fighting them in court about it. They argue in court that there is no distinctive marking's and win at the state's cost, this is the reason this was put on the table.

    Just my 2 cent's

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    Just my .02 I was lucky enough to draw a once in a lifetime moose hunt in MN and the DNR required a 3 hr class before you could hunt. At that meeting they strongly suggested the shooting of a calf and not the cow. I'm assuming because the calves chances of living without a mother are slim to none

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Okay so far though no one has optioned the compromise for hunters that will, vs the hunters that can't stand the cow hunts?

    do we not have a winter hunt? or should it be sooner so that the bulls are not harvested? seems like no one likes the October hunt as it goes through the end of October now.

    WHERE???? is the middle ground between biology and social acceptance?
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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Not even sure where you stand on it Vince, or what you are really asking.

    Where, when and how are the biggest questions.

    Are you just talking unit 20? or the whole state?

    Explain yourself d--m it.

    I can say it's not about accpentance, it's about control.

    Biology is a study, and that is fine if they study all area's in question, but to take one area and implemenet into another area, that's wrong.

    Let me ask you a question Vince, Where do the buffalo roam?

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    Not even sure where you stand on it Vince, or what you are really asking.

    Where, when and how are the biggest questions.

    Are you just talking unit 20? or the whole state?

    Explain yourself d--m it.

    I can say it's not about acceptance, it's about control.

    Biology is a study, and that is fine if they study all area's in question, but to take one area and implement into another area, that's wrong.

    Let me ask you a question Vince, Where do the buffalo roam?
    Buffalo roam on plots of land that want to sell disease free spuds to Korea....

    yes i am asking Rock. i am walking into the Bog this month and testifying to two issues in unit 20 already...

    BUT i want to fully understand the rift in the cow hunts.

    first i am NOT a fan of registration hunts with out limits anymore as they tend to leave poor opinion s and sour tastes in peoples mouths... for various reasons... need and example look at the 40 mile issues and the minto issues.. there is both sides of the spectrum right there.

    as a farmer we ate our young and old...

    the biologist says barren cows are the young ones with out the age or stamina to breed due to browse issues. old cows have calf's till they die just about...

    i have asked is there an easy way to spot an antler less bull? caribou have a prevalent and obvious penis sheath; can't say i have ever spotted one on a moose as of yet... pelicals of antlers spots? well if they are fresh they may be apparent...

    ARE antler-less moose hunters willing to NOT shoot a bull who has shed? i don't know people surprise me every day what they are willing to do to get ahead on the harvest schedule....

    are they willing to go out in the fall and hunt harder? or want the easy after breeding season? sno- go hunts....

    i want to know...
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    O.K. Vince where do the buf go after they leave the field's?

    ( It would help if you got a topo map)

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just trying to point you in the right direction)

    If you can't tell a shed moose from a cow moose, you need a better spotting scope. That's to the other part of your argument. Is this a hunt or any moose out there fair game after the fall season? That's what it boils down to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    O.K. Vince where do the buf go after they leave the field's?

    ( It would help if you got a topical map)

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just trying to point you in the right direction)

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    okay now that Rock has stalled this thread with the spanking of the bush again.


    I am kind of curious what others honestly think of the current system? Cow hunts will be a big deal over the 10 day of meeting this month
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    I'm with 257wby. A moose is a moose. If its brown its down. I personally don't really care for a rack (but if I got one I wouldn't turn it down), and as far as if its a cow or calf, I don't really see anything wrong with either. If I had a choice between both standing side by side and I was alone, I would take the calf. If there would be two of us, both would go down and not bat an eye. If there was a Bull, Spike, Cow or Calf all standing there, I would take the Spike unless the bull was significan't. If it was a cow or spike, I'd take the best shot available and where it may possibly fall in consideration. Oh no, thats another thread! I've never had a problem with harvesting does or yearlings as a deer hunter as they need to be trimmed also. As far as a cow, bull, or calf tasting better. I've had them all. Only time I taste a difference is when someone doesn't take care of the meat properly and in a timely fashion. I do taste a differance when a bull/buck is in the rut though. Diet does make a difference in deer but I can't say I've had a moose that was on a pumpkin bindging diet.

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    Default You really want an answer, eh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince
    I am kind of curious what others honestly think of the current system? Cow hunts will be a big deal over the 10 day of meeting this month
    This is all driven by Intensive Management Law that forces biologists to manage moose in certain areas for high levels of human consumption. Cow harvests were always a part of IM strategy to meet the harvest goals.

    I don't like the current system. IM Law specifically because it never really took into consideration the negative effects of trying to achieve these (imo) unrealistic goals. The crowding, the habitat damage, the conflicts. It mandates only one type of management, instead of allowing biologists to adaptively manage based on a variety of conditions.

    Something else that really constrains biologists and makes things harder on them than it should be is the law that passed after the fiasco in the 70s with excessive harvests in the Tanana Flats (including antlerless hunts) that gave ACs full authority over any future antlerless hunts. I agree with bios who are of the opinion that if they must manage for such high densities and harvests that they should be the ones to give the input on when antlerless harvests are warranted. Because it's been a huge fight with various ACs, and at times has stalled the process we needed to undergo, and this renewal process of antlerless hunts takes up more time for all than is really necessary.

    The rift in the cow and calf hunts is centered around the fact that many hunters have been brought up and indoctrinated to think that shooting females is very bad, and shooting calves is just wrong. And these antlerless hunts are bringing in too many hunters and causing crowding and other conflicts. Then we have the issue of a hunter taking a cow and others seeing a stranded calf...doesn't go over well.

    Until the moose population comes down to levels that ADFG wants and IM law demands (we have exceeded the IM high-end population goal), we'll have cow hunts. And even afterward...well there is just no way to reach the harvest goal without antlerless hunts.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    yeah i really do mark... so ? what is the compromise between all these communal perspectives? do we have these hunts earlier in the year so that the bulls are not harvested? the calf's are smaller and more likely along side mom, so there is a smaller chance of the cow being declared alone?

    do we do them all late? for ease of culling the herd? though i think the current numbers of antler less are more to maintain then to reduce. every thing i am hearing is that the 20 A moose herd is stable at a sustainable rate of harvest for all now.

    it is the communal issues. that are taking affect NOW. nearly 10 years later there are still moose in 20 after all the cow hunts. permits in 96 and registrations of 2004 and on.

    other areas are being asked to be taken to IM such as 20C many of the props regarding 20C this year are directed at pointing it at IM both for bear and moose. my conversations with the Dept is that they want to clear up the public perception and issues around it first...
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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Vince, wasn't sure if you were really looking for a further answer from me, but I guess any compromises on these communal issues have to be sorted out by the Board of Game, via F&G and AC and public input.

    Some changes have already been made, but there are no real compromises that would please everyone. When you dictate high levels of harvest for human consumption in certain areas, you also dictate that there will be conflicts and other problems. And imo you will never completely solve those problems.

    Take it easy,

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Vince, wasn't sure if you were really looking for a further answer from me, but I guess any compromises on these communal issues have to be sorted out by the Board of Game, via F&G and AC and public input.


    Take it easy,

    well I guess that was kinda the point behind all this eh? the Bog and FIG will deside, but those that have something to say of it have little input,

    kind of hard to work out a compromise if the undlerlying issue really is an unknown .
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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