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Thread: "Potlatch Moose hunting"

  1. #1
    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    Default "Potlatch Moose hunting"

    Well we've argued about whether or not their is rural preference. You make the call:

    http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/rural/story/1118113.html
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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    Angry

    Well, there is really no need for potlatch hunting of moose. There are enough moose killed on the roads and railways every year to support daily potlatches all over the state. They could just get on the road kill list a month or two before the potlatch and have ll the moose they want. Why are they allowed to hunt a moose when moose meat is already going to waste?
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Default

    Wow. This is in addition to their "subsistence" hunts? There will definitely be room for abuse on this issue.

    Tim

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default Under the Frank ruling...

    ... this matter was resolved. Further, article VIII alllows use of resources for citizens of the state including for spiritual purposes (as does federal law). Finally, game must be harvested in specified ways for potlatches. I doubt that roadkill qualifies.

    In a potlatch every part of the moose gets cooked, right down to the eyes, nose and marrow. Many of us cannot say that.

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    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    Default

    The thing is the natives want this 'potlatch' hunt for themselves. So why should they be allowed to harvest a moose and not the rest of us?
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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    Member BrettAKSCI's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tccak71 View Post
    Wow. This is in addition to their "subsistence" hunts? There will definitely be room for abuse on this issue.

    Tim
    There already is. However the state in partnership with several native corps are trying to clean this up and keep it to what it was...a religius serimony/practice rather than a way to use/abuse the system. I future goal is to identify the traditional animal of the ritual for the different groups. So if traditionally they took a caribou then they must take a caribou. If traditionally a moose...then a moose.

    Brett

  7. #7

    Default Which subsistence hunt? are

    Quote Originally Posted by tccak71 View Post
    Wow. This is in addition to their "subsistence" hunts? There will definitely be room for abuse on this issue.

    Tim
    you talking about?? The ones that rural folks qualify by living there? There is a traditional tie to potlatches and potlatch moose. I have been in on several. Like Sayak says, nothing is wasted, that is for sure! I do wish there were means of accountability, but there really aren't. Yes, potlatch hunting has been going on for eon's, and is and was legal before this BOG meeting. Nothing new here.

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Ignorance is too prevalent, judgment too quick

    Nothing personal, but it really seems ignorance of issues and continued unfair judgment of Native peoples drives a lot of the rhetoric here on this forum.

    Of course Native Alaskans want the potlatch hunt for "themselves," it's a millenniums-old spiritual/religious practice in their culture that they want to continue. (in fact, at one time these potlatch ceremonies were banned by whites, not because of the taking of game, but because white religious culture wanted Natives to conform to their culture surrounding death of loved ones. There's a lot more to this than just the taking of game aspect.)

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default Idea:

    Quote Originally Posted by pike_palace View Post
    The thing is the natives want this 'potlatch' hunt for themselves. So why should they be allowed to harvest a moose and not the rest of us?
    Start a religion that involves use of game.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    i agree mark... the only question is the religious side of it... half the people testifying were asking for it on the religious side of stuff. though i agree with the traditional values. i had to prevent my self from asking how they were Christian one day and pagan the next.. which religion are you lying too???? if in fact this is a religious ceremony and not just what we call a wake.. potlatches are as described having attended many myself in various communities. i do agree with them keeping them ... perhaps i am over thinking or missing a point in the religious value of it.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default A hybrid:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    i agree mark... the only question is the religious side of it... half the people testifying were asking for it on the religious side of stuff. though i agree with the traditional values. i had to prevent my self from asking how they were Christian one day and pagan the next.. which religion are you lying too???? if in fact this is a religious ceremony and not just what we call a wake.. potlatches are as described having attended many myself in various communities. i do agree with them keeping them ... perhaps i am over thinking or missing a point in the religious value of it.
    They have combined Christian and traditional beliefs. They do not consider it "pagan".

    I think much of the distaste for such an allowance (in addition to some jealousy) can be attributed to incidents such as the slaughter of caribou in the northern villages.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    They have combined Christian and traditional beliefs. They do not consider it "pagan".

    I think much of the distaste for such an allowance (in addition to some jealousy) can be attributed to incidents such as the slaughter of caribou in the northern villages.
    k thanks for that sayak.. i sorta understand what your saying on it... but to keep in the rules i will drop it.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Default

    I understad that traditionally they hunted "their land" why not allow them to do that in regard to the potlach? If it is an AHTNA potlach, then fine kill a moose or three on AHTNA land. Isn't that what it is there for? If you want to live a "subsistance" lifestyle then certainly the land you selected would be that which provided toward that end.... Right?

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default

    I have a few books here regarding potlatch ceremony among differing tribes in the North. And the first chapter of one (An Iron Hand Upon the People - The Law Against the Potlatch on the Northwest Coast, by Cole and Chaikin) is titled: "A Very Complex Institution."

    Which is by way an answer to your question, Vince. Yes, many Native peoples have converted to Christianity, but they still hold to various other cultural spiritual/relgious practices handed down over a very long time. Potlatches are one of those.

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    Default

    I can understand the potlatch thing although it needs to be controlled and watched to keep tabs on the population. I DO NOT like the part of the proposal where AHTNA gets to do the deciding and watching. Game management is the responsbility of the Department of Fish and Game no matter the debate over their effectiveness. Native corporations, or any corporations for that matter, should not be getting into this.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Default

    I would guess that most here have never been to a true Potlatch.Its about the most costly celebration for the person putting it on as anything I've ever seen.Its truly the giving of everything

  17. #17
    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default Far different meaning and purpose:

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    I would guess that most here have never been to a true Potlatch.Its about the most costly celebration for the person putting it on as anything I've ever seen.Its truly the giving of everything
    The purposes of potlatches between Eskimoan, Athabaskan, and Southeast native groups is extreme. The Tlingit, Haida and Tsimpshian were into giving to the extreme, sometimes to shame. Eskimo peoples did the same plus for other reasons including one potlatch similar to Halloween. For interior groups it was mostly about celebrating and honoring the dead.

    For whatever it is worth Vince, I probably agree with you.

  18. #18
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    Default All traditional?

    So at the potlatch celebrations only traditiona food gets consummed - none of the modern foods at all?

    I think many see the native "traditions" as only working to the natives advantage - they keep the few parts of "tradition" that work to their advantage and toss the rest!

    For example how many natives in Alaska even live in "traditional" housing? How many only eat traditional subsisitance foods harvested by traditional methods and weapons? I would guess ZERO but perhaps I am wrong.

    What the much of the public pictures is the natives going out in four wheelers and gortex clothing to slaughter game with high powered rifles and then eat it while drinking a coke and watching TV sitting in an easy chair in their modern homes built in the remote villages with taxpayer money. Right or wrong the "potlatch" moose are a part of the same picture.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Tvfinak,

    Do Native people have to live in underground sod houses and igloos and moosehide tents to satisfy your acceptance of continuation of other long-held cultural practices? Use only microblade spears and birchbark canoes and hide-covered boats?

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Tvfinak,

    Use only microblade spears and birchbark canoes and hide-covered boats?
    and as far as adhering to "traditional ways" i suppose it would be okay to corral and snare caribou, or drive them off cliffs? i mean really tv, "in for a penny, in for a pound"....
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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