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Thread: 416 Owners Questions

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    Default 416 Owners Questions

    I was wondering what are your impressions on the 416? Rigby,Remington,Dakota,Taylor, or Weatherby. What are the best qualities of it? How are they of moose and bear? Do you find much of an edge over the 375 H&H? Thanks for your insights.

    Ron

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    I was wondering what are your impressions on the 416? Rigby,Remington,Dakota,Taylor, or Weatherby. What are the best qualities of it? How are they of moose and bear? Do you find much of an edge over the 375 H&H? Thanks for your insights.

    Ron
    For what it’s worth, this 350-gr 2,750-fps, 5,900-ft-lb 416 Rigby load has me intrigued.
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=728499
    I cannot imagine a much more effectively load on anything short of the biggest three of the Big 5.

    It's a 350-gr Barnes TSX bullet moving at the same velocity as a 180-gr 30-06 bullet or as a 225–gr 338 Win Mag bullet. That’s some serious artillery. And, just because it’s really really cheap, don’t assume that it is not high-quality ammo. I can't imagine you would need anything better than a 375 H&H on anything that you might shoot in Alaska. But, as big of a Weatherby fan as I am, that Rigby could be as good or better on the largest Alaskan game than any factory loading in any other 416 (or perhaps other) caliber, especially if you expect to shoot it at anything beyond 200 yards. But, if you hand-load (and I know you do), you likely could recreate that load in the other 416s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    I was wondering what are your impressions on the 416? Rigby,Remington,Dakota,Taylor, or Weatherby. What are the best qualities of it?
    I've been using a 416 RM for 10+ years. I considered the various options when I bought my rifle and the 416 RM won out for these reasons. Its a factory chambered cartridge. It easily fits in a long action Model 70. It achieves good velocity (2400 fps with 400 grain bullets & 2600 fps with 350s) within reasonable pressure limits. The moderate velocity performs exceptionally well with simple cup & core (Hornady & Speer) bullets which allows me to shoot the rifle more often and therefor more confidently. Factory brass is readily available and I can use the ubiquitous 375 H&H case (read cheap) for producing ammo with minimal fuss. Recoil is not unbearable in a rifle of modest weight (8.5-9 lbs). I prefer belted cases for maximum reliability in a DGR.

    I have some experience with the Taylor at the reloading bench and firing range and know that it would be an effective hunting round, but IMO it is not as good of a choice as the 416 RM. To get a 400 grain bullet to 2400 fps you must load it very hot and though there are a few available factory loads for it, they are not at all common. The Rigby is a wonderful round and carries a mystique that is certainly attractive, but the few factory rifles are heavy, ammo is not common and is very expensive, and brass is often difficult to find and is always pricey. The Dakota is no doubt a fine round, but it suffers from the same handicaps as the Rigby. The new 416 Ruger is certainly interesting, but the neck is very short which is a negative design issue IMO. Factory ammo is loaded very hot, which detracts from reliability and the only real advantage IMO is its ability to fit into a shorter action like the Ruger M77. The Weatherby is a beast. The rifles have 26 inch barrels, they are heavy and the round must produce massive recoil, though I've never fired one. It flattens the trajectory over the other 416s, but I don't see that as a real advantage for the types of game that are hunted with a 416. YMMV.

    How are they of moose and bear?
    In a word, EFFECTIVE. A .416+ diameter hole just plain kills things. IME moose do not usually crumple at the shot with a non CNS hit, but with the 416 they do not go anywhere. Different responses from different bears, but you'll get impressive penetration from any and all angles on any size bear.

    Do you find much of an edge over the 375 H&H? Thanks for your insights.

    Ron
    I can't say that it is more effective than a 375 H&H on moose and bear. I will say it's not less effective and a bullet that is 23% bigger in diameter to start with and is 33% heavier can't be a bad thing IMO. I like the 416 RM because its trajectory is similar to the H&H and it hits harder. I know on moose I can shoot 250 yards with no problem, and I have no desire to shoot a bear that far away so whatever trajectory advantage the H&H has, it is of no consequence to me. The H&H is more than adequate for all NA big game, but when the range is measured in feet I have an extra measure of confidence with the 416 RM. I believe this confidence makes me a better hunter and shooter.

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    Default Look into a 416 RUM

    If you do your own loading, the wildcat 416 Remington Ultra Mag is a great round. It outperforms all the 416's exept the 416 WBY Mag. It fits any long action, and is an easy neck up from 375 RUM brass. I got my dies from Redding. My rifle is a Winchester 70 that was originally chambered in 300 RUM. It has a 22" Lilja #6 barrel. I am getting a measured velocity of 2550 FPS with 400gr Barnes Triple Shocks using RL 15 powder. This is not a maxed out load at all, and very reliable, shooting about .75" - 1.00" consistantly at 100 yards. Kevin Weaver of Weaver Rifles out of Peyton CO built the rifle. I have the twin to this rifle chambered in 375 RUM (with a #3 Lilja) shooting 300gr Noslers at 2800 FPS that is a lot more unconfortable to shoot. Anyways if you are a 416 fan, the 416 RUM is a great round to think about, something differant that not everybody has.

    I have not taken a brown bear or moose with it yet, but it has plenty of horsepower to get the job done on either animal, hopefully in 2012 I will be uisng it on the pennisula for brown bears. That is the next season I can hunt due to the one bear every four year management area.
    Last edited by sheephunteralaska; 02-01-2010 at 20:41. Reason: Wanted to add a bit to message

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    I have a 416 Rigby in a Encore. I havn't hunted anything with it yet but plan on taking a bear with it. You will know when you squeeze the trigger on a 416 for sure.

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    I have some experience with the various 416's and find them all a step up from the 375. Of the 416's, the Taylor is the smallest, then Remington, the 416 Murphy, Dakota, Rigby and Weatherby. The 416 Dakota has been replaced by the 416 Murphy, from a practical view point and the Rigby is factory loaded to the ballistic equal of the Remington and the Murphy.

    400 grains at 2400 is serious medicine but for 200 yard shots a good 350 grain will work so well, matching the trajectory of the 300 grain 375.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Owned a 416 Rem Mag and sold it. This time around I am building a 416 Ruger. Picked up a SS Ruger 300 Win Mag and a SS Shilen barrel and one of these days will drop it off to get the barrel installed along with iron sights.
    Personally I feel the various 416's are right in the middle between the various 375's and the 458 Win.
    375's - 300 grain
    416's - 400 grain
    458's - 500 grain

    IMO the 416 Ruger has bascially killed the reason to get any rifle rebarreled to the Taylor version. The Taylor is good but the factory brass and cheaper dies makes the Ruger a better choice.

    Are they needed in Alaska? Most likely not, but mine is being built as a back up to carry on occassion when my son or wife is with me and brownies are on the menu.
    Tennessee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I have some experience with the various 416's and find them all a step up from the 375. Of the 416's, the Taylor is the smallest, then Remington, the 416 Murphy, Dakota, Rigby and Weatherby. The 416 Dakota has been replaced by the 416 Murphy, from a practical view point and the Rigby is factory loaded to the ballistic equal of the Remington and the Murphy.

    400 grains at 2400 is serious medicine but for 200 yard shots a good 350 grain will work so well, matching the trajectory of the 300 grain 375.
    Forgive my ignorance/gullibility, but what is the 416 Murphy, Murphy (your creation?)?

    What advantages does it have over the Rigby? Compatible rifle(s)? I assume Rigby ammo is easier to get, right? Or do you roll your own?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    Forgive my ignorance/gullibility, but what is the 416 Murphy, Murphy (your creation?)?

    What advantages does it have over the Rigby? Compatible rifle(s)? I assume Rigby ammo is easier to get, right? Or do you roll your own?
    Yeah, my own configuration. And forgive my ignorance, I missed the new 416 Ruger, as Snowwolfe mentioned, it will fall right in there with the Murphy and the Remington. Both the Ruger and the Murphy along with the Taylor are packaged in the "standard" length (2.50") case length but each with different diameters. The Taylor is the American belted magnum case (338 Win and 458 Win), the Murphy is based on the 2.5" 404 Jeffery case, as are the 7mm thru 375 Dakota cases, and the 404 Dakota (great round). The Ruger is the 2.5" 375 Ruger case necked to accept 416 bullets and equal 416 Remington/Rigby/Murphy ballistics. I haven't laid my hands on one and can't verify any ballistics but it seems to be right there from what I've read. And as Snowwolfe says it is the most practical from the availability of ammo, in this country. The Remington actually has the biggest following on the African continent.

    Body diameter of the Taylor is about .512", the Ruger is about .532" and the Murphy is about .545". The Remington is .512" also but is full H&H length at about 2.825". Case capacity of the Ruger, Murphy and Remington are about equal at 105 grains of H2O. The Taylor is a fine round and fits many actions well and converts easily from a belted magnum rifle. It cannot equal the other three at the same pressures. Generally about 2300 and change with the 400 grain bullet. I don't think a hapless critter on the business end of it can tell the difference. It does work very well with the 350 Swift A-frame at about 2450 fps.

    I started my 416 Murphy before Dakota made the 404 Dakota, and before the 375 Ruger was with us. It is simply the 375 Dakota necked up (or the 404 necked down) to take .416" bullets. The 404 takes .423" bullets like the original Jeffery. It also delivers 400 grains at a full 2400 + fps. It is a wonderful cape buffalo caliber with slightly more diameter and slightly less SD. A good balance between the 458's and the 416's.

    The huge Rigby case is the capacity king, along with its belted counterpart the 416 Weatherby, a Rigby dimensioned case with added strength, a belt and the Weatherby shoulder. They do require a magnum length action, not just a modified standard action and the fat cases eat up magazine room. The new CZ Safari rifles are the way to go for a Rigby.

    The 338 Lapua is a shortened and strengthened Rigby case and it will neck to 375, 416 or even 458 and makes a great strong high pressure case. As originally dimensioned the Rigby case not strong enough to take 65,000 psi loads. It will stand a lot of bumping up ballistically with its big boiler room for powder.

    416 Rigby ammo is still more expensive than any other 416. The Taylor ammo is available from Superior and others and the Ruger/Remington fairly reasonably priced and available. The Murphy is a hand loader only situation right now but I do have head stamped brass for it and Quality Cartridge (and myself) will make ammo for it. I do like 40 caliber rifles and especially the 416's.
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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Yeah, my own configuration. And forgive my ignorance, I missed the new 416 Ruger, as Snowwolfe mentioned, it will fall right in there with the Murphy and the Remington. Both the Ruger and the Murphy along with the Taylor are packaged in the "standard" length (2.50") case length but each with different diameters. The Taylor is the American belted magnum case (338 Win and 458 Win), the Murphy is based on the 2.5" 404 Jeffery case, as are the 7mm thru 375 Dakota cases, and the 404 Dakota (great round). The Ruger is the 2.5" 375 Ruger case necked to accept 416 bullets and equal 416 Remington/Rigby/Murphy ballistics. I haven't laid my hands on one and can't verify any ballistics but it seems to be right there from what I've read. And as Snowwolfe says it is the most practical from the availability of ammo, in this country. The Remington actually has the biggest following on the African continent.

    Body diameter of the Taylor is about .512", the Ruger is about .532" and the Murphy is about .545". The Remington is .512" also but is full H&H length at about 2.825". Case capacity of the Ruger, Murphy and Remington are about equal at 105 grains of H2O. The Taylor is a fine round and fits many actions well and converts easily from a belted magnum rifle. It cannot equal the other three at the same pressures. Generally about 2300 and change with the 400 grain bullet. I don't think a hapless critter on the business end of it can tell the difference. It does work very well with the 350 Swift A-frame at about 2450 fps.

    I started my 416 Murphy before Dakota made the 404 Dakota, and before the 375 Ruger was with us. It is simply the 375 Dakota necked up (or the 404 necked down) to take .416" bullets. The 404 takes .423" bullets like the original Jeffery. It also delivers 400 grains at a full 2400 + fps. It is a wonderful cape buffalo caliber with slightly more diameter and slightly less SD. A good balance between the 458's and the 416's.

    The huge Rigby case is the capacity king, along with its belted counterpart the 416 Weatherby, a Rigby dimensioned case with added strength, a belt and the Weatherby shoulder. They do require a magnum length action, not just a modified standard action and the fat cases eat up magazine room. The new CZ Safari rifles are the way to go for a Rigby.

    The 338 Lapua is a shortened and strengthened Rigby case and it will neck to 375, 416 or even 458 and makes a great strong high pressure case. As originally dimensioned the Rigby case not strong enough to take 65,000 psi loads. It will stand a lot of bumping up ballistically with its big boiler room for powder.

    416 Rigby ammo is still more expensive than any other 416. The Taylor ammo is available from Superior and others and the Ruger/Remington fairly reasonably priced and available. The Murphy is a hand loader only situation right now but I do have head stamped brass for it and Quality Cartridge (and myself) will make ammo for it. I do like 40 caliber rifles and especially the 416's.
    Thanks for the helpful tutorial Murphy. Are you going to market the 416 Murphy or is it just for your own pleasure?

    I am looking at getting a field Grade CZ, and having the built as per Upgrade #3 here: http://www.hunting-rifles.com/CZ/CZowners.htm
    I don't need one right now, but it looks like I am going to get to go hunt S. Africa in July 2011 (through my dad's connections there).
    Do you think for that price range ($3.5K for rifle and work) that that is a decent deal? I was considering having it weighted out at 10.5 lbs, including a mercury reducer. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    If I ever do another big bore, it'll be a 416. 325-350 gr premium expanding bullets @ 2600-2700 fps give a combintation of terminal effectiveness, trajectory and shootability unmatched by bigger or smaller offerings.

    The 416 Rigby is the original, can't beat it's history, nastalgia or class. It's a massive case, so opperates at relatively mild pressures, unless you crank it up to 416 Weatherby levels. It's downside is mostly that it requires a massive action, limits the rounds in the magazine, and IMHO the guns that are big enough to hold the round are more appropriately sized and weighted for 50 calibers. Ammo is expensive and not that common.

    The 416 Remington was a commercialized version of George Hoffmans 416. Hoffman used the 375 H&H, Remington used their 8mm magnum. Common belted magnum brass, common belted magnum actions, and a big enough case to push 400 @ 2400 fps, the 416 Rigby standard and perfection for Africas big 5. To me this is the most sensible 416, though Remington hasn't really supported it, as rifles bigger than 375 H&H just don't sell enough for the big manufacturers to support them.

    The 416 Taylor is a 338 win mag necked up. It falls short of the Rigby standard, and will practically drive 400's 2200 fps, or 350's 2400 fps. If you have a std length belted mag action you're just itching to make into a 416, it's not a bad choice. Milder recoil and let's face it. a 350 @ 2400 fps is flat enough for 250 yds, and will flatten anything in AK with ease. That said, with what it cost to build up a rifle, you could build up a 416 rem just as easily, or go with a Ruger 416.

    There are a variety of other wildcats and limited factory offerings on the 404 jeffrey and ultra mag case in 2.5" and 2.85" cases. The all do the same thing, all require expensive reloading dies, case forming, and re-sale will be low compared to better known 416's. I've soured on wildcatting when there is a factory offering that will do the same. Full length magnum actions aren't hard to come by, so it's just as easy to sell a std length mag action, and get a full length mag donor.

    416 Ruger. I've always considered ruger rifles as solid dependable hunting guns. They used to be a bit less expensive than the other major makers, but now are about the same price. While the ruger case isn't based on the more common belted mag case, I think you'll find that it will be sufficiently available in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    Thanks for the helpful tutorial Murphy. Are you going to market the 416 Murphy or is it just for your own pleasure?

    I am looking at getting a field Grade CZ, and having the built as per Upgrade #3 here: http://www.hunting-rifles.com/CZ/CZowners.htm
    I don't need one right now, but it looks like I am going to get to go hunt S. Africa in July 2011 (through my dad's connections there).
    Do you think for that price range ($3.5K for rifle and work) that that is a decent deal? I was considering having it weighted out at 10.5 lbs, including a mercury reducer. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Market?? No but the reamer is in my possession and for loan. You should come shoot my gun. It is really a mild mannered 8.5 pound rifle. I have the only one in existence. I almost had Dakota interested when the company went though its financial woes then was sold. We don't talk anymore. If you haven't shot a 416, you need to try it. They are not the butt kickers many folks think they are. I had a 7.25# Taylor with 22" barrel for a number of years. It was like shooting a 338. The McMillan stock was dimensioned correctly and helped settle it down. A very nice shooter. Are you in AK?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Market?? No but the reamer is in my possession and for loan. You should come shoot my gun. It is really a mild mannered 8.5 pound rifle. I have the only one in existence. I almost had Dakota interested when the company went though its financial woes then was sold. We don't talk anymore. If you haven't shot a 416, you need to try it. They are not the butt kickers many folks think they are. I had a 7.25# Taylor with 22" barrel for a number of years. It was like shooting a 338. The McMillan stock was dimensioned correctly and helped settle it down. A very nice shooter. Are you in AK?
    I would love to fire your rifle if I am in the area. I live in VA (hunting AK in Sept.), but try to visit my brother in Lawrence when I can. I'm trying to move back to Colo. from where I came and want to return, but that always seems about 3-years or so down the road because of career issues.

    I'm not sold on anything yet, but like some of the basics of the CZ 550 in 416 Rigby because it has a 25" barrel (I am one of the few who actually likes long barrels in big magnum rifles); I really like the idea of loads like the CorBon 350gr TSX 2,700-fps loads (almost 416 Weatherby power); but Rigby ammo generally is more commonly-available in Africa than Wby ammo; the rifle (though not ammo) is fairly cheap; and it has a respectable 3+1 capacity (aren't the Wby 416s only 2+1?). But if I do that, I can't decide if I should just try to live with the stock CZ or convert it into that sweet AHR rifle in the link above. I conceivably could use it on my AK bear hunt this Sept., but I am pretty happy with my 340 Wby for that. But whether or not I used it in Sept. in AK and/or later in S. Africa, I likely would not be going on grueling 20-mile elk-hunt type mountain hikes with it. Thus, I was looking for a hefty--maybe 10.5-lb rifle--to tame the recoil. My 340 Wby is the heaviest recoiling rifle I have shot, other than tripod-mounted 50-cals; Mk19s; etc ... I was all worked up before I pulled the trigger the first time, thinking it was going to knock my shoulder off (with all the people saying that the .338 WM even is too heavy on recoil). It was all much ado about nothing. With scope, mounts, and bipod, it weighs over 11 lbs, and it seems to recoil less than my 6-lb slug rifle firing 12-ga 2-3/4" sabot slugs. My second group, firing 250gr NPs at 50 yds, were all touching. So, I might be overconfident, but I think I camn handle a 416, but would probably want it heavier, rather than lighter.

    Do you think $3.5K is a good value fo rthe CZ/AHR rifle? Or is there something better in that range with eh Rigby or a similar cartridge? I take it you are not making/selling the type you have?

    I apologize for all the long questions. Thanks for the good info and advice.

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    Still waiting for my 416 TAYLOR to come back from being blued...
    I have 40 rounds of brass and a couple hundred bullets.
    Even have some loads loaded with 69 grains of RL-15 and a 400 grain Hornady round nose. That should give me around 2,300 fps from my 23 inch barrel...
    IF I ever get the darn thing.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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