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Thread: Low Velocity big bore VS Fast medium bore

  1. #1
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    Default Low Velocity big bore VS Fast medium bore

    Sorry if this has been kicked around a lot, just in my searches just did not find exactly what I was looking for. Want to get others thoughts on things

    I've been discussing this with a coworker,,,,,,guns in question

    45/70 pushing a 405 hardcast to 1850FPS

    375 H&H 270 to around 2700FPS

    Range under 150 yards

    Basically wondering which one is going to kill better, ie., inflict the maximum amount of damage to vital organs,,,,,, this is what we have debated so far. Or have agreed on,,,

    "45/70 is going to penetrate more than the 375 in body tissue, and most likely be less affected by bone"

    "375 with impart more "shock" thus creating a larger impacted wound "channel" than the 45/70

    We have argued over more than this but this is what we keep coming back to, what we think the biggest pro is for each. Is it better to hit (as for the animal lets just talk big bears, something you want down as quickly as possible, ) to have the diameter and weight behind you, or the speed and medium weight behind you?

    We own and shoot both rifles, and with draw results still not out, it makes a guy wonder about what rifle we would want in our hands if drawn, and something to ponder over winter

    Thoughts?

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    The age old slow and heavy VS fast and light debate.

    We all tend to fall into one camp or the other on this (I'm kinda in both camps myself) but fact is they both work very well with the right bullet for the job they are doing. I would say you have a dead heat in the range you set and the debate will continue infinitely.
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    To simply answer your question - it depends on what your purpose is, bear hunting or bear protection.

    The .45-70 load you listed would not be my top choice for hunting or bear protection. There are better expanding bullet choices out there that I believe are more suited for hunting. This same load would be at the lower end of what I would use for bullet weight for a bear protection load. I use 540gr at 1600fps.

    To make a good comparison, you need to compare the top offering in both calibers for the intended purpose.

    Given a modern hunting bullet and good shot placement, I do not think there is not much real world difference in the two rounds for hunting purposes within the effective hunting range of both rounds. Both are going to get the job done. If I were to pick one for hunting it would be the .375H&H simply for the range it provides over the hot loaded .45-70.

    I think the hot loaded .45-70 with very heavy hardcast lead bullets has an edge in being a better "bear protection" cartridge for two reasons. First, I think it has the edge, in being able to "stop" a bear quickly. By that I mean, stop a bear from moving at you but maybe not necessarily killing it. A hardcast 500gr bullet or heavier is going to break bones and keep going (the 405gr hardcast you listed is good, but there is better, ie heavier, options available). Shot placement is not necessarily going to be that great when a bear is charging so the edge goes to a bullet that will likely be hitting limbs, bones, and other areas and need to keep moving and continue to do damage. A lighter weight bullet in the .375H&H is going to have a higher chance of being deflected and not breaking critical bones. Second, I think the lever-action Marlins offer a better platform for strictly protection purposes over bolt rifles for most people. They are small, handy, and can provide quicker followup shots in the hands of most shooters over a bolt gun.

  4. #4

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    Within 150 yards it's fords and chevys. Take your pick. They're both great, but you won't be happiest til you make your own choice. If you can be sure all your shots will always be within 150, either will do its job and killing "better" is the land of sales pitches and spin. The great the likelihood that shots will stretch past 150, the greater the edge to the 375.

  5. #5

    Default Apples to Apples

    Oranges to oranges, A hard cast 45 (solid) dosen't out penetrate a 375 H&H solid in most medium. Applied energy to vitals kills. As a friend of mine who worked on a "Crash Team" at a local hospital in my home town said, "We can sew bullet holes, but what do you do with a large cavity that looks like red soup?" I would take a 375 with a Nosler Partition any day over a 45/70 just for that reason. Have fun!

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    Member BrettAKSCI's Avatar
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    It depends what bullet you're shooting in the .375. A solid will act the same as the hard cast, so I suppose I'd rather have the extra would channel diameter of the .458. If it's a soft I'd much rather have the .375 as with premium bullets like TSX you will get more than adequite penetration, but still have a better wound channel due to it opening up. I'd also rather have a bolt gun any day of the week, so I'd shoot 300 grain TSX from the .375 and call it good. The .375 is also a much more versitile cartridge as are bolts a more versitile rifle.

    Brett

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Love the 45/70 but with the 375 H&H you can hunt all game in Africa and the 45/70 you can't.I too would use different bullets for both rifles.

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    Default both

    you cant wrong with either. I have and use a 45/70 and love it. I have read of penetration tests done compareing the 45/70 with heavy hardcast against the 458 using solids, in the tests Ive read about the 45/70 won by a considerable margin. The bullets used in the tests could not be cycled in the 458 or the results would have been different. And in my mind bullet construction and speed is the key. I have used the 45/70 a lot and within 200 yards it is impressive.

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    Without disrespecting the 45-70 round (which is great in its own right), I've got to say that it doesn't hold a candle to the .375. Not saying the 45-70 isn't effective- it is, but its not a .375...

    With a .375 you're simply ready to shoot anything in N.A. (and most of everywhere else) with almost any factory loaded round. Its long been said that a .375 with a good scope is ready for everything you're apt to hunt at any practical range.

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    Default range

    Hodge i agree as long as the range is past 200 yards. I have seen a lot of game taken with the 375 and 45/70 and it has been my experience that the 45/70 hits harder inside that range. Phil Shoemaker says with big bears that both will put bears down but the ones hit with the 45 cal bullet will get up slower!
    Out past that the 375 is king, and for an all around caliber for the north I dont think anything beats it.. including the 338..

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=70526

    Seems locals prefer the 375 two to one over the 45/70

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=70526

    Seems locals prefer the 375 two to one over the 45/70
    Ya but thatís all round hunting including sheep and boo that will be at range while not covering bear protection at all. 30-06 is leading in the all round (Larry Mayhan) Alaska hunting gun but rephrase the question to best brown bear (Tuff Hedeman) gun and see where the 06 goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    Hodge i agree as long as the range is past 200 yards. I have seen a lot of game taken with the 375 and 45/70 and it has been my experience that the 45/70 hits harder inside that range...Out past that the 375 is king, and for an all around caliber for the north ..
    Given the hypothetical scenario of hunting at 150yds I think I'd take the .375 and ballistics doesn't have everything to do with it.

    With my scoped .375- a good 150yd shot is a piece of cake. Spitzer bullets give good trajectory and I've not met a .375 bullet I didn't like at those velocities.

    With my open sighted lever gun- that would be a challenging shot given the FP 45-70s rainbow-like trajectory. I could probably hit something that far, but I'd be sweating about it.

    I've seen the 45-70 cartridges that are in effect a low-end .458, but I think they're really stretching the envelope of a lever rifle. They kill at close range like there's no tomorrow but out at some distance (even just 150yds) I think the trajectory liability outweighs any slight ballistic advantage.

    At half the hypothetical distance- 75 yds- that lever gun looks better all the time.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Why does nobody talk about the huge advantage that the .375 H&H have over anything else I've ever shot? That one huge advantage is that you can eat right up to the bullet hole with a .375H&H. I have truly found that the best preforming bullets have been the Woodleigh. I just have never found anything in America to use a solid bullet on. But then I have never had any live Mammoth to hunt.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Geez guys! We already addressed the general issue here in this thread (http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=63664), and we all unanimously and harmoniously agreed that faster and smaller is better than bigger and slower.

    Thus, the 375 H&H wins.

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    Either one will kill anything in Alaska with room so spare. Just one question. Can you kill an animal deader than dead? It reminds me of when my son (5) traped a woodchuck on my folks farm. He called to tell me about it. He said " it was in the trap in grandmas garden. grampa shot it and it was dead. He shot it again and it was deader" and so there is my question. Can you kill an animal deader than dead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    Either one will kill anything in Alaska with room so spare. Just one question. Can you kill an animal deader than dead? It reminds me of when my son (5) traped a woodchuck on my folks farm. He called to tell me about it. He said " it was in the trap in grandmas garden. grampa shot it and it was dead. He shot it again and it was deader" and so there is my question. Can you kill an animal deader than dead?
    Only with a .500 S&W, cause only when you have the ability to kill deader than dead are you truly safe in the woods here.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Give me the 375 H&H with a 270 gr tsx @ 2700 fps. It'll do everything the 45-70 will do, as well as what it won't do. With the tsx, penetration will sufficient for shots at any angle, and with a 250 yd zero, it's hold on hair all the way out to 300 yds.

    Asside from the trajectory advantage, I think you'll find the 375 does more damage on the broadside heart/lung shot, but it doesn't give up penetration to achieve that. There have been plenty of big animals taken with that bullet where it entered the stem, and ended up at the stern, or vice versa.

    Some will argue the lever gun offers faster follow up shots, two comments on that. Make the first shot count so you don't need a follow up, and more importantly practice shooting your boltgun with followup shots.

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    I have found with the single shot that close and accurate adds to my experience.

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    Thanks guys

    The thread pretty much follows what I've been thinking. For me it seems the the range is the big key.

    I'll put some numbers through my calculator and see how they compare at further ranges.

    Thanks

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