Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: Anyone one try a 45-120 in a handi?

  1. #1
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default Anyone one try a 45-120 in a handi?

    Hi all,

    I have read from another forum, guys making 45-120 out of their 45-70 handi rifles. They are loading them below the 45-70 pressures and getting 458 lott performance from them.

    http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.p...#msg1098974273

    Ron

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,601

    Default

    Lots of neat things to do with the little H&R useing the SB2 frame. Hopefully Remington won't screw it all up

  3. #3
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    That sounds like an ‘OUCH’ maker to me, 458 Lott recoil in a little Handy Rifle!
    Don’t see why it wouldn’t work if your man enough to shoot it though.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  4. #4
    Member The Kid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Los Anchorage
    Posts
    1,089

    Default

    I knew a guy who 45-120ed his H&R back in the 1990's. He said he sure was glad it still shot well with 45-70, because 45-120 was like being hit by a freight train.

  5. #5

    Default

    My perspective is black powder, but from that standpoint, I'd give serious thought to whether or not it's such a good caliber. Lots of talk at castboolits and on the Sharpes forums about how difficult it is to get accurate loads from the round, with lots of shooters moving back down to the shorter cases for better accuracy, most notably the 45-90, if I recall correctly.

    I don't own the 45-120, but have another with a similar reputation and problems- the 50-140. I can't imagine what you could do with it as a smokeless powder round, cuzz it's plenty to hang onto when you fill that 3 1/4" long case with black powder and top it with a heavy bullet. My rifle weighs right at 10 pounds and still whack pretty good. A handi rifle? Yowsa..... And the 50-140 was a stinker to find accurate loads for, just like the rep of the 45-120.

  6. #6
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,601

    Default

    Its a real heavy load for the Handy but the Buffalo Classic with the big 32" barrel is shootable. After shooting a 45/120 in a Ruger #1 I knew I didn't want to rechamber my #3 to it.

  7. #7
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    My perspective is black powder, but from that standpoint, I'd give serious thought to whether or not it's such a good caliber. Lots of talk at castboolits and on the Sharpes forums about how difficult it is to get accurate loads from the round, with lots of shooters moving back down to the shorter cases for better accuracy, most notably the 45-90, if I recall correctly.
    So how is the 45-90? Is it true you can get 100-200 fps faster then a 45-70 out of it?

    Ron

  8. #8
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,601

    Default

    Longer case means more powder and more fps with the same weight bullet. These were all black powder rounds so at some point you will reach a point where extra does not give as much gain if you keep it safe.

  9. #9

    Default

    I know the 45-90 and 45-110 only by reputation, and lots of BPCR shooters have a higher regard for them than the 45-70. They're using them for long range shooting and do much better than the 45-70.

    It's worth explaining a little about what you gain with longer cases and more powder using BP, which is different that smokeless. You simply don't get much extra velocity beyond a certain point from a longer case. What you get it the ability to push a much heavier bullet to the same velocities of a lighter bullet in the shorter case. And the heavier bullet adds up to flatter long range trajectories and more whomp in the landing zone. The BPCR shooters I know like the 45-90 best because they can push a 500+ grain bullet as fast as they can launch a 405 in a 45-70, and the 500 is much better for long range.

    The problem with long black powder cartridges is air space. You can't have any safely. The case has to be "full", so you end up filling the air space with fiber wads if your optimum charge doesn't rest against the base of the bullet. Air space isn't a problem for smokeless powder, but black powder with an air space can treat your bullet like a bore obstruction, ringing the barrel at least or rupturing it at worst. In the example of my 50-140, if I'm shooting a light 500 grain bullet, the optimum charge is 110 grains of 2f powder, and I have to add three 1/4" fiber wads before seating the bullet. It takes a short bullet like the 500 to get the rated 140 grains of powder in the case, but that much 2f is too hot for good case life and my rifle didn't like 140 grains of 1f. The rifle is at its best with 650 grian bullets, 125 grains of 2f and 1 1/2 of those fiber wads. And it's pushing the 650 as fast as I can push the 500. And recoil is getting right up there with my 458 Winnie.

  10. #10
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,601

    Default

    Yep much better to shoot with the muzzle pointed up some than down,keep the powder against the primer.It can also cause problems with light smokeless rounds in about any caliber

  11. #11
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    So is it possible to get a 350 grain bullet to 2400 fps using smokeless powder even possible for this round? I see 45-70 loads of 350 grain bullets at 2100 fps and a hybrid round based on the 45-90 case (2.21" case length compared to the regular 45-90 of 2.4") pushing 350 grains to 2200 fps, so in theory I should be able to push a 350 grain bullet to at least 2300 maybe 2400 fps, right? and still stay under 40-45 CUP? Please proof my logic here...... Thanks


    Ron

  12. #12

    Default

    I'm pretty sure I've heard of it being done, and if memory serves it was in the Ruger #1, but I've never tried it and didn't pay much attention to it at the time. I'm betting if you go to one of the reloader sites you'll find threads where folks have talked about it. There's a whole lot of case volume there, and with slower powders in a strong action, the potential gets real interesting.

  13. #13
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    I noticed on the Hodgdon Site they are getting 2300 fps out of the 45-70 with a 350 Hornady. So in theory it should work at lower pressures.....

    Ron

  14. #14

    Default

    I just finished some serious checking on your behalf. Lots of info, and things you can infer from between the cracks.

    A buddy has a Ruger #1 in 450- 3 1/4- NE- pretty much the same case. In that rifle with Vitivori powders he can easily launch 500 grain bullets over 2500 fps. According to him "way more load than you ever want to call fun."

    He's also got a couple of Lotts (a bolt and a #1), essentially the same thing with a belt. Same velocities and remarks.

    He said it would be pretty easy to pick up a #1 in 45-70 and have it rechambered like a lot of guys do. But he also observed that you can buy no end of Lott conversions on the auction sites for around $600. "Fired once, and it comes with a box of 19 rounds." Guys build them and shoot them, and decide they'll have more fun doing something else.

    He suggested too, that you're not going to be happy with so much recoil in a Handi-rifle. He's done it in a couple of other calibers and gave it up as a very bad experiment. Accuracy was generally poor, too. He recommended instead that you look at getting a barrel of your choice for the TC Encore. Excellent accuracy, and a little better set up for recoil.

    All second hand, but I trust this guy implicitly. He's a very serious shooter and reloader, and the big stuff doesn't bother him all that much. In fact he's the only one who shot my Ruger #1 460 Weatherby and seriously considered buying it.

  15. #15
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    I'm not that familiar with these rounds but I can tell you it generally does not work in a linear way like that due to the pressure time curve and bore volume. By linear I mean if double the powder will double the speed, then triple the powder triple the speed, and quadruple the powder quadruple the speed . . . that’s linear.

    The longer case has no effect on the bore volume with a straight case round like these. There will be an optimal charge for your bore volume where adding more of the same powder will return no more (and maybe less) velocity because it won’t have time to burn before the bullet is gone.

    My guess is that if using powder ”X” a 45-70 gets 2100fps and 45-90 gets 2200fps at the same pressure then 45-120 would do more like 2250fps at that pressure. 2300/2400fps should be possible but with a faster powder making a bit more pressure. The extra air space of the longer case should flatten the top of the pressure curve of a faster powder allowing you to use a bit more of it than you could in a shorter case.

    I could be wrong about these particular cases and bore volumes since I have only played with 45-70. But I would bet 45-90 is about at the sweet spot at the top of the pressure time carve and 45-120 will give a diminishing return . . . still a return just not as big as you are expecting.

    However, since I have seen 2200fps from a 405 grain bullet in a 45-70 Ruger#1 and had a black and blue shoulder for 2 weeks. I’m confident you could get 2400fps (and likely much more if the gun and you will take it) from a 350 grain bullet in 45-120 within the pressure ratings of the round if you find the correct powder.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  16. #16
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    The 45-120 is what I read online. The 45-90 seems like a good comp between them as far as how much does one person need. I shoot 350 grain out of my 375 H&H at 2400+ fps so I do understand the recoil. I was thinking that a gun that shoots both 45-70 and 45-90 would be fun. I shoot a Tracker II in 12GA for deer season. 385 grains at 2100 fps is a hoot to say the least but it is ok with a limbsaver on.

    BrownBear & ADfields thanks for the insight


    Ron

  17. #17
    Member jdb3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Petersburg, Alaska
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Getting a 45/120 to use smokeless powder in will not get you much. The reason for the larger cases was because the only way you could get more velocity was to increase the case size when using black powder (or as BB says launch larger bullets at the same velocity). If you try doing this with smokeless powder you will run into trouble. There is too much dead air space left in the case with smokeless and you will get pre-mature detonation. Not a good thing. Change the smokeless powder in the 45/70 to get more velocity. You have to use a modern rifle like the No 1 to do this. There is a reason that 45/70 rifles were limited in the pressure rating they have. If you need something more go to a 458 or 458 Lott etc. Listen to what Brown Bear told you in one of his earlier posts. Jim

  18. #18
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdb3 View Post
    If you try doing this with smokeless powder you will run into trouble. There is too much dead air space left in the case with smokeless and you will get pre-mature detonation. Not a good thing.
    Jim
    Well that depends on the powder you use, sure don’t want to use something like Unigue in it.

    There are bulky powders, even some very bulky powders out there made just for large cases though. An example of the bulky is Varget and the very bulky is 50BMG, which is the same powder and coatings as Varget but bulked up to better fill a very large case.

    There is smokeless data out there for 45-90 and 45-120 both, it’s been done with success and I believe is a sound concept for the correct rifle. It’s very much like what’s been done with some of the Nitro Express rounds but with an American history behind it.

    Why not just get a Lott? Well all the work has been done for you that way where is the fun in that? Sure it’s a sound option with maybe more potential if you just want to buy something and go hunting. 45-90 or 45-120 proving up sounds like much more fun to me, a guy would just need to play with it some . . . that’s most of the fun in my book.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  19. #19
    Member Big Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Palmer,Alaska
    Posts
    1,737

    Default

    If you are going to use any chambering in any rifle (I don't care what it is) Use the case that fills the chamber, the shorter the case used in a longer chamber is an invitation to a ringed chamber, as you BPCR fans know that the use of fillers in BPCR rifle cases is common. I have a .45-120 done up on a Remington smokeless rolling block action and stock with this barrel it is over 12# lbs. Shooting that load from a handi rifle, I got to hand it to you. Start out with a good MRI recording of your brain or CT scan. That way your doctor can see where the damage is.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  20. #20
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Just looked at Hodgdon load center, they have a bunch of info on 45-120 and 45-70 but nothing for 45-90!

    45-120, 350g bullet
    Benchmark= 1922fps/26800cup with 57g
    H4895= 2031fps/26,900cup with 64g
    H4198= 1903fps/27,500cup with 49g

    45-70, 350g bullet in the same pressure range (they have higher pressure loads for new 45-70s but not 45-120)
    Benchmark= 1886fps/26,900cup with 56g
    H4895= 1784fps./21,700cup with 53g to 2045fps/32,900cup with 59g
    H4198= 2036fps/32,200cup with48.5g (this was the low load)

    So it looks like 100fps or so gain in 45-120 with like pressures. Will that hold true at increased pressures, the gap between them grow, or maybe close up . . . who knows till it’s done by someone. I know 2200fps can be done with a 405g in a strong 45-70 at around 38,000cup, don’t know what 35-38,000cup will do in a 45-90 or 45-120.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •