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Thread: .357 vs. 10mm

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    Member bigbear400's Avatar
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    Default .357 vs. 10mm

    With all this talk about the 10mm , I would like to know your thoughts. Can you handload up the good old .357 to pass the 10mm ? Or does the 10mm take the cake ?

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    For factory hot loads the 10 seems to run about 100fps and 100ft.lbs greater. That`s comparing 200g cast.... The 10 can sho0t up to 230g. I`m sure both can be pushed farther.

    Used to be a .357 guy but have since switched. Not to mention I`ve never found a 16 shot .357.

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    One advantage to the .357 is the ability to use any kind of bullet, regardless of ogive. The 10mm, being an auto pistol cartridge is limited in what kind of bullet profile you can use and still get reliable feeding. Unless you're using a revolver, but there aren't many of those that are designed for the 10mm. I would think that a .357 using a heavy for caliber hardcast loaded to max in a strong gun like the Rugers would have the edge in terms of penetration.

    I haven't ever tried it myself, just my thoughts based on what I've read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsoldier View Post
    One advantage to the .357 is the ability to use any kind of bullet, regardless of ogive. The 10mm, being an auto pistol cartridge is limited in what kind of bullet profile you can use and still get reliable feeding. Unless you're using a revolver, but there aren't many of those that are designed for the 10mm. I would think that a .357 using a heavy for caliber hardcast loaded to max in a strong gun like the Rugers would have the edge in terms of penetration.

    I haven't ever tried it myself, just my thoughts based on what I've read.
    Yeah, and all autos are somewhat limited by the action, in how powerful the loads.

    I'd take the 357 any day, over the 10mm but not over a 41 Mag. I load 180 and 200 grain cast bullets in mine.

    I've nothin against the 10mm. It's probably gooder for those who prefer an auto. (Faster to shoot accurately????)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Aksoldier:
    To you, and Ralph and the others over there in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places where youíre in harms way, serving your country, and WAITING to come back to the Greatland to HUNT, and FISH, and otherwise enjoy the wilds, I wish you a safe and speedy return, and the time and means to do the things you hope for.

    I like that you guys can post, and the enthusiasm it brings to the forum.

    Smitty of the North
    Well said man! It is not said enough. I too wish all you guys the best and quick returns. Spring bear is not far off!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbear400 View Post
    With all this talk about the 10mm , I would like to know your thoughts. Can you handload up the good old .357 to pass the 10mm ? Or does the 10mm take the cake ?
    I don't do anything with the 10mm, however I do heavy-load the 357 magnum, it is pretty easy to get the 180gr. hardcast, WFN bullet doing well over 1400fps. can a 180gr. 10mm beat that?
    I just did a search and 1250+ fps seems to be about the top end for a 10mm auto, some claim to have surpassed that somewhat, but it wasn't what I would call a reliable source.
    I'd also like to say the 1400+fps 180 gr. 357 loads should only be used in HEAVY frame 357 revolvers!
    BuffaloBore 180gr 357 can be used in a K frame with no problems and are 1425fps. I have shot them in my S&W 13 for years.
    Double Tap makes a load that basically twins the B/B loading but i'm not sure if they are safe in smaller frame guns. Someone here must know.

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    Got both and love both . . . it's a very close race indeed!

    Factory ammo 10mm wins in speed, energy, bullet diameter and weight hands down.

    However in hand loads it gets too close to call. You can take 357 to 250 grains in some guns but she's a long skinny thing that likes to tumble. 357 with 200s can knock on the door of factory 41mag winning over 10mm in energy, but 10mm canít be pushed much in an auto. 10mm has a bigger diameter that about evens out the small power advantage in my mind. Just way to close to call in hand loads. Neither gets close to a 41mag hand loaded as Elmer first meant the 41 to be, very close to a 44mag.
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    I'm paraphrasing what I wrote in another thread, but I think it's relevant here:

    A Glock or a 1911 (or whatever) in 10mm is an interesting option because they are relatively easier to carry, carry a fair punch, and (maybe irrelevant to some degree) have a high capacity. I think the 10mm option is interesting for me because it would fit easily in a combat holster on the cartridge belt I always wear when backpacking and hunting and becomes unnoticable.

    A hot .357 load might equal (or even exceed) a hot 10mm in stopping power. However, the difference is that a 10mm is the upper limit in convenient high-capacity, fast-shooting, convenient-to-carry autos. A .357 may be just as fine, round-for-round, but if I can carry a 4-inch or 5-1/2-inch .357-Mag revolver, I can pretty much just as easily carry a .44-Mag Redhawk or something comparable. For every .357-Mag there is a similar .44-Mag in the same barrel length that is comparable. It might be a couple ounces heavier, but it is comparable. You might find some 1-1/2-inch urban .357 that produces mostly flame out of the barrel (much like the .454 three-inch models I just don't understand), but, IMO, a the only significant advantage of a four-inch .357 over a four-inch .44 is less recoil, which likely doesn't matter when you need it, and .44-mag recoil is not that bad.

    Compare a Glock or 1911 10mm to anything similar. There is no handgun similar to a 27-oz handgun (Glock M20) firing a 200gr-230gr 750 ft-lb bullet out of a 15-rd magazine. There is no 11mm or 12mm handgun firing a 1,500 ft-lb 230gr round out of a 15-rd (or even 7-rd) magazine that weighs only a couple ounces more than a Glock M20. On the other hand, a hot .44 basically doubles the energy of a hot .357--or at least adds 50% more power however you calulate it. The Glock G20 and similar semi-autos are the max effort of a combat pistol that might POSSIBLY be a bear stopper (until someone markets something better in an appx.-27-oz gun; there are the giant, cumbersome ultra-mag autos, like the Desert Eagle, which weighs more than twice what a G20 weighs, and almost half as much as my Mark V .340 Wby, so I discount them as no remotely-similar to the 10mms for that reason).

    If I had a 4-inch .357, and no .44, it might make sense I to carry it as a bear defense round. But I can't see how anyone would prefer it to the barely-heavier .44. IMO, there is nothing a .357 can do that a .44 can’t do better—and in a package only a couple/few ounces better, unless, perhaps, hou are talking about the irrelevant-to-bear-defense ultra-lightweight, short-barreled urban .357s. What makes the 10mm such an interesting (and to some, attractive) option is that there are no options in a semi-auto that are only a few ounces heavier/bigger than a 10mm that does the same thing with more power the way a .44 does vs. a .357.

    And (for those who hate energy, please stop here), there are 200gr & 230gr 10mm loads reaching about 750 ft-lbs--which is not nearly as much as a hot-loaded .44, but is about the same as the long-time standard 240gr/760ft-lb .44 Mag loads. And you can have 15+1 of those in a fairly light/fairly compact package.

    And I know that the 10mm increases in weight if you put all 15-rds in the mag. But it's still not heavy, and you could always put, say, 10-rds in there.

    I love the .44 Mag, but I sold my Redhawk 5-1/2 (mostly because the number of guns I own is starting to get silly), when I bought my 10mm. I already have a 7-1/2" .454 Casull if I want 30/30-level power in a pistol. If I want convenience and about the same power as a moderate .44-Mag load, I can just clip my G20 in my military holster on my web belt/harness thingy, and I forget I even have it on--and I can draw it very quickly, handle it very easily, and shoot it fairly accurately/rapidly.

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    Boy there are some great handgun threads going right now. I think its time for some penetration testing to satisfy my own curiosity. The gentleman here http://www.theboxotruth.com/ has done some excellent work. I think I will try to set up a some tests like this one http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot10.htm where we have an easy to get medium that is uniform. Then compare similar penetrating loads. It would be nice to be able to get some comparable numbers for various rounds. Yes I know that I am not likely to get attacked by a box of gallon ziploc's in the wild but I think you can get comparable numbers to work with. We shall see what the results are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagLvr View Post
    I don't do anything with the 10mm, however I do heavy-load the 357 magnum, it is pretty easy to get the 180gr. hardcast, WFN bullet doing well over 1400fps. can a 180gr. 10mm beat that?
    I just did a search and 1250+ fps seems to be about the top end for a 10mm auto, some claim to have surpassed that somewhat, but it wasn't what I would call a reliable source.
    I'd also like to say the 1400+fps 180 gr. 357 loads should only be used in HEAVY frame 357 revolvers!
    BuffaloBore 180gr 357 can be used in a K frame with no problems and are 1425fps. I have shot them in my S&W 13 for years.
    Double Tap makes a load that basically twins the B/B loading but i'm not sure if they are safe in smaller frame guns. Someone here must know.
    .357 Magnum 180gr WFNGC Hardcast 50rds.$38.95
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    Caliber: 357 Magnum

    Bullet: 180gr. Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast

    Velocity: 1300fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
    1420fps / 6"bbl S&W 686

    Muzzle Energy: 676 ft. lbs.

    Box of 50rds.


    Here is what Double Tap's site says. Oh yeah check out that price too!! I offer free shipping.

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    I think it would be neat to see the results, but either way I wouldnt be swayed from packing my G20. Im satisfied with its published data. If I wasn't I would move to a bigger gun. But i have tried that and I just don't shoot the bigger guns accurately at a high rate of speed. And I dont draw near as fast from a holster with a big boomer as a do that flat sided glock.

    After all the handguns I have owned and shot. And the list is pretty long at that. I like the G20 the best and its the most comfortable gun in my hands and mind.

    comparing one cartridge to the other is kind of counter productive. Now comparing different loadings and bullets for one cartridge is alot more productive I would imagine

    But then again maybe not. The 357 and 10mm being so close, that maybe it would be interesting, but I suspect the 357 is going to beat the 10 mm a little bit. The numbers showing that the 357 has a slight velocity edge and a slighty smaller bullet diameter, Im willing to bet it penetrates farther. But probably not by very much.

    But everyone has to remember that you are also dealing with two different platforms. One a High cap automatic, the other a 6 shot revolver. Will the 357's slight advantage over the 10mm be worth a 10 round reduction in magazine capacity? I wouldnt think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimfirematt View Post
    comparing one cartridge to the other is kind of counter productive. Now comparing different loadings and bullets for one cartridge is alot more productive I would imagine
    I guess I don't understand why knowing what each cartridge is capable off would be counter productive????

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    i didnt mean that finding out what they are capable of would not be productive, but that comparing them to see what is better would be.

    I thought that was the intent of your testing you wanted to do. To see what was better the 10mm or the .357.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimfirematt View Post
    But everyone has to remember that you are also dealing with two different platforms. One a High cap automatic, the other a 6 shot revolver. Will the 357's slight advantage over the 10mm be worth a 10 round reduction in magazine capacity? I wouldnt think so.
    I agree in any kind of fight I want one of my 10mms but the revolvers have their own advantages over autos. Loading up and down without changing things, reliability, accuracy at longer ranges comes to mind. They are just different platforms and shine in different areas.
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    I would simply like to have some real numbers to compare with all the cartridges we discuss. People routinely throw out that "this or that" cartridges/bullet penetrate better than others. For my personal interest it would be nice to have some specific numbers to see if its true. I am not out to prove any particular point wrong just get some facts. It will help my own decision of what I want to carry.
    You certainly can find sites on the net with penetration tests but they aren't all comparable. Some only test hollowpoint's in relation to human penetration. Some use phone books but there is a huge variation of what you will get depending on how wet or dry they are. Most can't get access to ballistic gelatin. So I figure too use a simple medium that is readily accessible and can get a direct comparison.

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    I have been thinking about media for testing a bit for some months now also. Gel is too pricy, water bottles are unlike flesh, and papers are too ridged to tell much difference between distances. So far the best Idea I have come up with is a 12x12x48 plywood box with cloth or something light over the target end in steed of wood. Line it with plastic and fill it with 12x12 squares of sponge foam rubber that are completely soaked with water. I think this would act a lot like tissue, be reasonably cheap, and take at least 4 rounds before needing reset with new foam. I think it would work good as long as it’s not frozen but what do yawl think of wet sponge foam rubber?
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    Quote Originally Posted by akraven View Post
    Boy there are some great handgun threads going right now. I think its time for some penetration testing to satisfy my own curiosity. The gentleman here http://www.theboxotruth.com/ has done some excellent work. I think I will try to set up a some tests like this one http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot10.htm where we have an easy to get medium that is uniform. Then compare similar penetrating loads. It would be nice to be able to get some comparable numbers for various rounds. Yes I know that I am not likely to get attacked by a box of gallon ziploc's in the wild but I think you can get comparable numbers to work with. We shall see what the results are.

    I agree some penitration tests are in order . My die set should be here some time next week , so I'll be working on a few differnt loads for the good old .357.

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    Well I built a test box this afternoon so hopefully if the weather cooperates I will start doing some this week.

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    Both the 357 and the 10mm produce about the same velocity using the same weight bullets in similar lenght barrels. The 357 will penetrate deeper and the 40 will dump energy faster. It's rare that anyone gets off more than a few rounds in a bear attack so the high capacity is a non issue. If your auto is reliable with your ammo, then thats a non issue. I think I would feel about as good carring one as the other. However I can handle bigger so I carry a 41mag with 220s at 1500. When I can afford one I will probably get a 454. For those that prefer an auto there is the 45Win Mag in the Grizzly. A lot more punch than a 10mm or 357 and not much bigger frame than a 1911.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    [FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana]If I had a 4-inch .357, and no .44, it might make sense I to carry it as a bear defense round. But I can't see how anyone would prefer it to the barely-heavier .44.
    That's a Good point, assuming you can handle the 44 Mag, and most people can.

    My 44 Mag, LOADED weighs ONLY, 2 OZ more than my 357, LOADED. The 357 has a 6.5" barrel and the 44 a 6" barrel. The weight, if not the bulk is essentially the same.

    Of course, the difference in energy Figures are meaningless, from a killing power standpoint.

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