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Thread: 10mm What are your thoughts

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    Default 10mm What are your thoughts

    I know the debate over a bear gun has been beat to death here but i have to ask the question. What do you think of the Glock 20 10mm with 200grn hard cast bullets. My son has one with a wolf barrel so he can shoot lead in it. My thoughts are better a 10mm than nothing. I have a .454 so i will be toting with. A pistol that can be drawn in a fraction of the time it takes to unsling a long gun makes that my choice for carrying when i am fishing. What are your thoughts?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    I know the debate over a bear gun has been beat to death here but i have to ask the question. What do you think of the Glock 20 10mm with 200grn hard cast bullets. My son has one with a wolf barrel so he can shoot lead in it. My thoughts are better a 10mm than nothing. I have a .454 so i will be toting with. A pistol that can be drawn in a fraction of the time it takes to unsling a long gun makes that my choice for carrying when i am fishing. What are your thoughts?
    I agree with you that just about anything is better than nothing. I have both a Glock 29 (10mm) and a S&W .460. The Glock is my choice for recreation such as biking or running due to it's compact size and ease of carry. No way I'm going to try to haul around the revolver on a 10 mile run. The .460 is for when I am out hunting, hanging around camp with meat nearby or walking up on a kill site. The Glock may be slightly underpowered compared to the ideal gun, but it is easy to draw, easy to shoot, and I can get a lot of rounds off quickly if needed.

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    Member bigbear400's Avatar
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    Default No 10 for me

    I'm thanking about a 460 rowland conversion , the rowland hits the low level 44 mag power where the 10mm hits the low 41 mag level . With the XD conversion it's a nice packable size.

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    I agree it's better than nothing or at least if he can shoot it under stress anyway. I have an EAA 10mm that I pack a lot but if I think there are browns around it's a 460 for me and here most of the year there are browns! In my estimation a well loaded 10mm is just fine for a black or what is the most likely critter to come for me around here, a moose in the winter time.

    For a charging brown I am not at all confident I could hit his central nervous system through that thick and poorly angled skull with the type of presentation he will be giving using a 10mm. If I miss the Ďsweet spotí a little I feel a 10mm is more likely to deflect and not penetrate the CNS. By using more gun, 460 in my case, I likely increase the size of the sweet spot since itís more likely to penetrate even with a more of a glancing angle.
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    Default A couple thoughts about the .460 rowland

    At the last gun show. A couple people were talking about the rowland. Two of the guys had friends with them. Those two said their buddies are getting scared of that round in those Springfield and S&W guns. They brought up a good point about the those two manufacturors. They don't even make a 10mm in a polymer frame! S&W I think might have briefly, but no more. So the people were saying if the 10mm is such a high pressure round and they don't make polymer guns, is the .460 rowland safe on a standard less pressure .45acp frame and barrel? This I thought was a good point.


    There was a lot of S&W 5" polymer autos around. I was thinking of it, but those guys kinda changed my mind. I don't know, but to me it makes sense. If they can't make a 10mm, how long will the rowlands hold up on the lesser .45acp frame compared to the 10mm? I am not a gun nut, nor a gunsmith, nor do I shoot alot. But to hear friends of owners of the rowland bring this up and say the owners are done shooting those guns kinda makes you wonder and double think about it.

    Are there any .460 rowland shooters on this forum? What are your takes on it?

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    I had one on a 1911 frame. It made me nervous shooting it on that. Its a whacker of a round, especially out of a light automatic. Anyway, I dont have that gun anymore. I thought it was hard on the gun, not to mention I got tired of chasing that precious 460 brass around.

    I have never heard of a gun blow up though using this round. But that is limited to what I have searched on the net.

    As to the original question, I like my glock. I have carried them all, but I like the glock the best. Going on my third season of only carrying this pistol. Sold all my others. It packs easy, I shoot it well, dead nuts reliable. Not the perfect bear round but better than nothing!

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I am considering getting a kimber 1911 and converting to 460 Rowland. Chris, any chance that Doubletap will start producing loads for it?

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    Ok I'm an out of the closest 10mm carrying fool.

    I carry a Glock 20 10mm whenever I'm out and about. Saying this round is nipping at the heels of the 41 mag is a bit far fetched, it's more so around the 357 mag. And, belive it or not, bears have been killed by the 357 mag.

    I've spent a lot of time in the woods and I have never stumbled upon a charging, man eating, bear. Not to say that will never happen but bears tend to keep their distance around me. As soon as I leave camp that's when the bears arrive. UGH! On the other hand I've run into a handful of human aholes, scum of the earth, confrontational piss holes, that made me glad I was carrying 31 rounds of 10mm.

    I shoot the glock well, the ammo I shoot is very reliable, and after blasting a 200 grain WFNGC through a cottonwood I was at peace carrying this gun in the woods. It's not for everyone, some would rather carry a more poweful sidearm, and that's fine by me. I'll stick with my G20 for the time being.

  9. #9

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    I recently a convert to the 10mm. I shoot it better than my 44 I had so I sold my 44. In truth if you look at what folks feel is an acceptable hunting round for bears all these handguns are VASTLY under powered. A 243 win. has about 25% MORE energy than a .44 and the monster 500 S&W is on par with the energy of a 30-06. So to me its really more of a crap shoot of whether or not you hit the CNS of a bear, Something is better than nothing, but even a .44 is only 60-70% of a 243. Practice as much as you can and hope it never happens, but if it does hope for the best with what you have on you..

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    Quote Originally Posted by akrstabout View Post
    At the last gun show. A couple people were talking about the rowland. Two of the guys had friends with them. Those two said their buddies are getting scared of that round in those Springfield and S&W guns. They brought up a good point about the those two manufacturors. They don't even make a 10mm in a polymer frame! S&W I think might have briefly, but no more. So the people were saying if the 10mm is such a high pressure round and they don't make polymer guns, is the .460 rowland safe on a standard less pressure .45acp frame and barrel? This I thought was a good point.


    There was a lot of S&W 5" polymer autos around. I was thinking of it, but those guys kinda changed my mind. I don't know, but to me it makes sense. If they can't make a 10mm, how long will the rowlands hold up on the lesser .45acp frame compared to the 10mm? I am not a gun nut, nor a gunsmith, nor do I shoot alot. But to hear friends of owners of the rowland bring this up and say the owners are done shooting those guns kinda makes you wonder and double think about it.

    Are there any .460 rowland shooters on this forum? What are your takes on it?
    The parts that contain the pressure, the barrel and slide, are steel just like the Glock. I just canít see problems arising from the polymer frame with 460 Roland any more than with a steel frame. As long as the barrel lock to the slide is adequate it should hold the pressure just fine, if the lockup were not up to it no one (or very few) would be converting them.

    I think the big trick is getting the correct spring rate and spring strength so it does not eat itself under the recoil and that wonít matter if itís steel or polymer framed.

    I think itís interesting that it was ďfriendsĒ of the guys you talked to that are having these issues not guys that actually own the guns. This really makes me wonder if itís just fish stories. I donít have a 460 Roland and have never shot one so I donít have a dog in the fight but the stories sound suspect to me. When we were building 50BMGs down in Arizona I would work the booth at the gun shows and guys would come and tell me all kinds of tall tales about them. Many times I watched as guys were talking face to face with the guy that had designed our gun and tell him it was their buddy that designed that gun . . . he would just reply ďOh, you know Bill! Itís a small world.Ē
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    Quote Originally Posted by akrstabout View Post
    At the last gun show. A couple people were talking about the rowland. Two of the guys had friends with them. Those two said their buddies are getting scared of that round in those Springfield and S&W guns. They brought up a good point about the those two manufacturors. They don't even make a 10mm in a polymer frame! S&W I think might have briefly, but no more. So the people were saying if the 10mm is such a high pressure round and they don't make polymer guns, is the .460 rowland safe on a standard less pressure .45acp frame and barrel? This I thought was a good point.


    There was a lot of S&W 5" polymer autos around. I was thinking of it, but those guys kinda changed my mind. I don't know, but to me it makes sense. If they can't make a 10mm, how long will the rowlands hold up on the lesser .45acp frame compared to the 10mm? I am not a gun nut, nor a gunsmith, nor do I shoot alot. But to hear friends of owners of the rowland bring this up and say the owners are done shooting those guns kinda makes you wonder and double think about it.

    Are there any .460 rowland shooters on this forum? What are your takes on it?
    I just finished reading Gun Digest's Book of the 1911, volume II by Patrick Sweeney. Both the 9mm and the .40S&W are higher pressure than the 460 Rowland. The 45 ACP that the Rowland is based on is a very low-pressure cartridge (about 17,000 CUP iirc.), and that's the reason Rowland came up with the conversion, because he saw more potential. Even at 460 Rowland pressures, you're not in 9mm/.40S&W territory and the Springfield is chambered for both of those. I'd say there's nothing to worry about.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I agree that getting the proper spring is a key to the conversion. I have shot heavy loads in my eaa witness 10mm with the stock spring and and the feel is not so good. I haven't had any problems with it but I think it the slide hits the limit of it's travel w/ too much force. I plan to order a heavier wolf spring soon as well as the 40s&w barrel for it to use with the stock 10mm spring. Neat thing about the cheap witness is that it is a direct drop in barrel swap to switch to 40 the stock 10mm magazine will feed the 40's just fine! As much as I would like an XD w/ the 460 conversion for my hand a 1911 just feels better and the thinner design I think will carry better though it is a bit heavier I imagine. One of these days...

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    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I am considering getting a kimber 1911 and converting to 460 Rowland. Chris, any chance that Doubletap will start producing loads for it?

    He doesn't have plans at the moment. Double tap is launching the 460 S&W round by summer though!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by akrstabout View Post
    Double tap is launching the 460 S&W round by summer though!!
    Music to my ears!

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    The parts that contain the pressure, the barrel and slide, are steel just like the Glock. I just canít see problems arising from the polymer frame with 460 Roland any more than with a steel frame. As long as the barrel lock to the slide is adequate it should hold the pressure just fine, if the lockup were not up to it no one (or very few) would be converting them.

    I think the big trick is getting the correct spring rate and spring strength so it does not eat itself under the recoil and that wonít matter if itís steel or polymer framed.

    I think itís interesting that it was ďfriendsĒ of the guys you talked to that are having these issues not guys that actually own the guns. This really makes me wonder if itís just fish stories. I donít have a 460 Roland and have never shot one so I donít have a dog in the fight but the stories sound suspect to me. When we were building 50BMGs down in Arizona I would work the booth at the gun shows and guys would come and tell me all kinds of tall tales about them. Many times I watched as guys were talking face to face with the guy that had designed our gun and tell him it was their buddy that designed that gun . . . he would just reply ďOh, you know Bill! Itís a small world.Ē

    Oh yeah that is always possible man! Just bringing up what sounded like good points to me. Maybe the prices on the S&W m&p were to high and that is why they were still around. The 460 conversion is the only reason I even looked at those, Glock 20 is my choice of carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsoldier View Post
    I just finished reading Gun Digest's Book of the 1911, volume II by Patrick Sweeney. Both the 9mm and the .40S&W are higher pressure than the 460 Rowland. The 45 ACP that the Rowland is based on is a very low-pressure cartridge (about 17,000 CUP iirc.), and that's the reason Rowland came up with the conversion, because he saw more potential. Even at 460 Rowland pressures, you're not in 9mm/.40S&W territory and the Springfield is chambered for both of those. I'd say there's nothing to worry about.
    Man I have had the time to research in depth yet. The biggest problem is ammo, if Double Tap loaded it, it would be a no brainer! But really I am totally happy the G-20 and have complete faith in it.


    Anyone shooting heavy loads should definately change up to the highest power spring you can get. My choice is a 22# spring on a captured guide rod. I found a 24# at Double Taps site. Might give that a try sometime. Huge difference in felt recoil and doesn't beat the guns up. That goes for any brand!

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    I was looking into the 460 Rowland conversion kit for a 1911, and the kit comes with 3 different springs, all heavier than stock. The company that was selling the kit recommended starting with the heaviest spring, then going lighter only if there were issues with feeding or extraction.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

  18. #18

    Default S&w m&p

    I've been playing with an M&P 460 with factory ammo. The recoil is way more than a 45acp, and as an actual user I do wonder if and when it will take its toll. The takedown lever mounted in the polymer frame seems to take the brunt of the slides rearward movement. Until then, it's awesome and accurate. As far as pressure goes, don't mistake it for just a hot 45acp. Hodgdon 2009 manual lists 45acp pressure at 17,000+ cup, and the 460 rowland at 39,000+ cup. This clearly shows the rowland generating more than double the pressure of the 45acp. This pressure is right in the realm of the 45 winchester magnum. The 45acp guns aren't all compatable, and that is where WWG research and development comes in for this M&P.

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    I beleve that WWG makes a moon clip for the S&W 460 to take the rowland , that would be to cool 4 differant rounds in one gun !! WWG and Boondocks carries 460 rowland on a regular basis and it's not like you can find 10mm at your local corner store. But I'm still not sold on the Rowland , my friends brothers uncle said it not powerfull enough to stop a bear

  20. #20

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    Well I am currently a 10mm user and have used the 460R in the past. I am seriously debating on trying one again. I had the Clark setup with the comp and it was a pain to carry. Now that WWG and Wilson have proven it can run without the comp I am looking at it again. I think the 10mm is a great cartridge that has never gotten the respect it deserves. I can also see that playing with a new cartridge would be alot of fun too : )

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