Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: 20A management ?

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    607

    Default 20A management ?

    Unit 20A is a perfect example of how ADF&G can screw up hunting areas with their micro managing.

    20A was good hunting for the last 25 years, not to over crowded, plenty of bulls lots of cows, plenty of feed, It was not ready to crash,

    Then the brain surgeons at FBKS ADF&G decided that there were to many cows, started cow hunts first, Then calf hunts, That increased the popularity of the area, which in turn increased hunting pressure.

    Then they went to spike, fork, fifty inch or 3 brow tines

    Now they say they have their target of 33-35 bulls per 100 cows, so what do they do ,have a drawing for any bull.

    So now someone from anchorage that never in a million years would ever think of hunting in 20A goes through their permit paper, and sees any bull in 20A, wow I'm going to put in for that, that must be something special if it's in the permit paper. It's not ,it is a shadow of what it was before ADF&G managed it.

    If they would have just put 20A back to any bull, no permits, everyone in the state wouldn't be looking at it as a place to hunt. And it would have less pressure.

    I know nothing last forever, but it especially bitter when the people hired to manage your game screw it up this bad. This place will take years to recover, and will only do so if they stop the cow seasons. I'm not sure if the biologist know that the cows are the moose that give birth to the bulls.

  2. #2

    Angry

    They just have really short memories and an agenda unlike yours and mine. It is all by design and with purpose, make no doubt. Case in point, it wasn't that long ago they held Cow Hunts in Unit 16B. Well....we all saw the fruit that has beared. Sure has made their jobs easier managing the Moose Hunting there now, didn't it.

    Unit 16B should be the Epitaph for all to set their focus on. As Unit 16B is now, so shall Unit 20 in the years to follow. It is really a shame when you see it all going down the drain, but the college boys want to play games with the "data sets, hair samples and studies". Some "outdoorsmen" even fall for it, advocate it and support it to it's end.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  3. #3
    Member Matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    3,410

    Default

    What your pissed off about was the creation of trophy management in 20A.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    What your pissed off about was the creation of trophy management in 20A.
    I did hear a rumor back when the 50 inch restriction went into effect that a guide on the south side of 20A had pushed for it, not sure if it was true.

    They can have the trophy moose I want the meat, I'll take a 40 inch and under any day over a 60 incher.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain T View Post
    They can have the trophy moose I want the meat, I'll take a 40 inch and under any day over a 60 incher.
    Generally speaking the 60 incher give you more meat per moose than a 40 inchers.

  6. #6
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    What your pissed off about was the creation of trophy management in 20A.
    how does a 50inch or larger rule equate to trophy management?

    take all the big bulls? all the older bulls every year?

    the biologist even agree that 50" is anti trophy management as it leaves a bunch of 3-4 tear old bulls breeding

    there are tons of moose in 20 a now however most are not legal for the hunter with a general season harvest ticket. then along some 1000 any bull tags on a drawing plan...

    everyone wants one of those tag, yet less then 50% are used.

    of the remaining balance many carried into the field are not used to harvest the mid range mulligan and 40inch range moose. they will find a 50% and use the Harvest tag to report it.... so now hunters that would normally NOT go to 20A go there with a tag, then pull a moose that person with out a tag could of pulled, left yet another sub legal moose in the field that with the current rate of growth and genes... MAY NEVER reach 50" to begin with.

    how about the 50% never used? many of those are not used do to early season hunting and harvest of a moose in the holders home unit or elsewhere. and some are just not carried forth as planned.

    i have many locals from 20 A input into many of the issues they see.

    the first step will be removing the harvest tag from the equation... if you draw an any bull tag in 20A.. thats the tag you hunt and are encouraged to Take those mid range bulls leaving the large ones for hunters that were not fortunate enough to draw one. because the simple part of the matter is.. if your putting in for any bull your really not trophy hunting to begin with. those that are trophy hunting will look for 50" or larger and count little bulls
    and those that will hunt elsewhere ... will be required to use that tag, or allow it to go to some one that will...

    i addressed a lot of this in Prop 38 in this years region III meeting. there is some amending going on now with in the AC. having to do with DM 770 and DM 768 the two most popular tags and areas to hunt in the 20A region.

    this prop was written at the request of many of the local resident hunters from Healy, Clear, Anderson area. this area makes up ~4%-8-% of the overall applications for the any bull tags in this unit and they have less then 5% of winning a tag to hunt in their own back yards due to overwhelming applicants from south Central areas.

    unit 20 A has turned into a forty mile moose hunt in some areas and gotten ridiculous in some places with several hundred hunters hunting the same drainage



    I also have prop 31 to extend the grizzly season in unit 20A from Sept 5th - may 31 to

    Aug 10 -June 30 due to the increased bear activity in the unit.. the harvest is up from 10-12 per year to 20+ per year and growing along with bear issues.

    the Biologist DO NOT know how many bears there are. they will lean to the Conservative side and agree to sept 1-may 31 while the majority of 20 is Aug-june... and will allow 20 C to extend to Aug - June while keeping the screws on 20A with its limited access and huge CUA's

    many on the Ac's do not like the cow hunts either... step up to a meeting and let your voice known... Capt T. shoot me a note i will hook you up with like minded folks to talk to.


    the BOARD OF GAME MEETS IN FAIRBANKS for region III and unit 20A the last week of Febuary... you can speak then or not...


    i will be there. speaking for many in the unit i live in.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  7. #7
    Member mit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Fairbanks
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Seems like 20A is doing just fine to me.
    Tim

  8. #8
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default Captain T, you're waaay off base

    First off, 20A (and other Unit 20 subunits) is a product of our Intensive Management Law that forces biologists to manage game for "high levels of human harvest."

    IM Law was intended all along to include the harvest of cows to meet the harvest objectives.

    It took a while after the lows of the 70s for the 20A population to rebound. But rebound it did, to where by the mid 90s it had the largest density of moose of anywhere in North America. Which is pretty much what IM Law had been created to do.

    The problem was, biologists found out that this was too many moose for the available habitat. Along with the highest densities, 20A also had the lowest twinning rates. And twinning rates correlate to available browse. So more browse studies were initiated and come to find out the moose in 20A are eating themselves out of habitat.

    In order that things didn't get worse, and so the browse could replenish itself, we needed to take more moose, including cows. At any given point, one or two really bad winters would also cause a huge dieoff of all those moose, and biologists felt that rather than those moose basically go to waste if that happened, that we'd all be better off if they went to feed Alaskans.

    Biologists are doing a good job imo under the constraints they must work with according to our IM Law mandates. What you are essentially unhappy with, Captain T, is IM law, and the decisions of the Board of Game that sets all hunting regs, seasons and bag limits. Plus, it is the Advisory Committees that actually have final say on any antlerless hunts, which is a pretty unique power to have.

  9. #9
    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Big Lake
    Posts
    8,451

    Default

    fish and game manages areas for alaskans. not always for locals. fairbanks is more than welcome to come down and hit the denali hwy/eureaka/kenai peninsula. my drivers license says ALASKA. 20A is just as much mine as unit 8 is yours...but we all feel entitled to "our" backyard, when in reality there is no such thing.
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
    Master guide 212

  10. #10
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    Sorry Jake I am out of rep to send your way... Excellent post

  11. #11
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    fish and game manages areas for alaskans. not always for locals. fairbanks is more than welcome to come down and hit the Denali hwy/eureaka/kenai peninsula. my drivers license says ALASKA. 20A is just as much mine as unit 8 is yours...but we all feel entitled to "our" backyard, when in reality there is no such thing.
    Jake no one says you cant or shouldn't come to 20 A... the issue is the management of the unit has made it so that 90% of the moose are not legal under the General season harvest tags.. and the draw tags that are available for them are 99.8% gone to Residents of other units. kinda hurts the local family that used to hunt in their yard when they are invaded every season and now no longer have any moose with in range..

    the cow hunts in the beginning pretty much ruined any chance of my seeing moose on my 300 acres any more.. 2 maybe three a year on it now....

    been hit very hard. and of the few thousand folks that live there? no one seems to care about their lands or personal property. theft is an issue every fall. damage, and safety concerns are rising...

    but that is JUST one small corner of it.. Unit 20A is huge .. but most all go to the same corner and that is where something needs to give. Just like chicken ridge..

    20C will most likely have changes coming soon too.. they are already talking antler restrictions there and that is one of the few areas left any bull.. too bad nearly half of 20C is Denali park lands and closed so the spill over is between 20A and C.

    if unit 8 had moose for every one then you bet they would be there too.

    the locals like every one would like a chance at drawing for their back yards or a chance at a legal moose under a gen harvest tag. if 1000 hunters show up with any bull tags and take all the +50... whats that leave? bunch of non legal moose with hungry neighbors
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  12. #12
    Member Matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    3,410

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    the locals like every one would like a chance at drawing for their back yards or a chance at a legal moose under a gen harvest tag. if 1000 hunters show up with any bull tags and take all the +50... whats that leave? bunch of non legal moose with hungry neighbors
    I find that hard to believe with all the moose hunting that takes place up that way. The regs show and confirm this. Your neighbors must not be that hungry . . .

  13. #13
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    That small corner also gets federal subsistence caribou tags so it is hard to feel that bad for them. If it is meat they need then they have more opportunity than the 1000 guys from out of town. I want to hunt moose in my back yard too, unfortunately it is a 2% draw for cows, no any bull tags at all and 90% of the bulls are not legal...

  14. #14
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Deltajct
    Posts
    2,499

    Default

    Vince did'nt you go to N.P area, and was there when your better half shot a cow?

    I'm not getting your point, its O.K. to do it in someone else's backyard, but not in yours?

    I must be reading your post's wrong.

    I watched for two time's in my lifetime what these cow hunts have done, and nothing good will come of it.( not to the extreme's that they take them)

    Mark ( bushrat) the twining rate has never been proved as to the lack of browse. Moose will move to where the food is, that being said they can show you all the pic.s they want to too make you believe thats the problem. Might it be because that the predetiors got to them before they were counted?

    I have not seen one moose in my yard ( one set of tracks in my drive) all winter.

    I have a lot of thoughts on the cow hunts and it gets my dander up when people accept what is being shoveled out by the management.

    The thing that iritates me the most is that they don't do any research as in collaring more than a couple in the flats, ( asked when they ever collared one in northeast 20D , the answer was never) There used to be bears in town ( this was another argument why they decided the cow hunt here in Delta) Now you are lucky to have heard about 2-3 sightings a summer. Where's the bear tracking system?

    I know I should'nt be on here because this is to close to me and I'm going to have to go to my anger management class now ( lift a beer and tell myself I don't know whats best for the unit) But I will tell you this, you are seeing a way that the state is going to regulate your way of hunting like you've never seen before if you let it countiue. E.S.

  15. #15
    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Big Lake
    Posts
    8,451

    Default

    guess what i'm saying is...public/state land is not your backyard any more than it is my back yard...
    i do realize we are now talkin' management stuff though...so carry on lol
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
    Master guide 212

  16. #16
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    That small corner also gets federal subsistence caribou tags so it is hard to feel that bad for them. If it is meat they need then they have more opportunity than the 1000 guys from out of town. I want to hunt moose in my back yard too, unfortunately it is a 2% draw for cows, no any bull tags at all and 90% of the bulls are not legal...
    well when you get home and learn your way around... you will find your gaspingly WRONG...Unit 20A FTMA and 20 c residents NORTH of the unit 13 and 20 border DO NOT get any fed subsistence permits for that area..you gotta live south of the park... and as that is all walk in only... there is no crowds... now keep up...

    but .. those they do qualify for are the same as ALL rural residents apply for as defined by the rural maps.. and unless you live in town proper.. you probably do also, a short trip through the fed book will show if your rural or not...it is in the first few pages...


    Rock. the cow hunts were not managed at all in the last 10 years they opened up registration hunts and let droves of people slaughter all in site..

    i dint have the heartburn you do over then as i know that health herds require both sexes to be culled. However they were managed wrong... and unlike now there were no limits time lines or any steps..

    the local cow hunts in 20b are to reduce the traffic to moose collisions in populated areas, read it again a look at the areas affected.. take a look at how many are hit along Sacha and people hurt and / or killed and again read the management plan. BUT like i told Capt.. come to a meeting i will hook you up with like minded Ac members who have a vote on the cow hunts


    let me put it to you this way...


    Matt... your buddy draws an any bull tag.DM770. you come up with him...

    find 1500 hunters in the ferry area.. you both want a moose..

    your buddy spots two moose. one 4 BT and 58 inches and along side it is one 29 inches with one brow tine.

    he shoots the big bull,,


    yeah!!!!!!!!!!! all high fives the small one walks away.

    he whips out a harvest tag and tags the bull...NOW you cant even fill the any bull tag (yeah like people don't do that) and you realise... you both could of had a moose. but his walked away... with two you prolly would have come home and shared with neighbors etc etc etc....


    what do the regs show? 2000 applications for the dm 770.. for 85 moose and growing. each moose tag brings an average of 3 hunters, yet the quotas are not being filled. and you know what... any one draws an any bull tag should be able to get one.. if they can't they are BAD hunters.period. there are THAT many sub legal moose that will NOT reach the proportions of 50" or 4 brow tines.. the average 4 BT moose for this area is 42" and small tines.


    my goal is to make MORE opportunities for More of the hunters not limit anyone... but even the balance between the draw tags and the general harvest tags thus making MORE opportunities for hunters to fill the table.


    gotta Go off to the AC meeting in Anderson.

    I wonder how many will show up at the BOG this next month in Fairbanks...


    Prolly easier to just piss n moan about it on here eh?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  17. #17
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Deltajct
    Posts
    2,499

    Default

    Vince the traffic problem was another one that they brought up down here to the Delta area, a place that has a pop. of 5000 max, but were still allowed to shoot almost 3000 cows. Come on. All there data was taking from your part of the woods, with very little research done here.

    I'd better get off this subject before I blow a gasket.

    Good luck in your area.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    First off, 20A (and other Unit 20 subunits) is a product of our Intensive Management Law that forces biologists to manage game for "high levels of human harvest."

    IM Law was intended all along to include the harvest of cows to meet the harvest objectives.

    It took a while after the lows of the 70s for the 20A population to rebound. But rebound it did, to where by the mid 90s it had the largest density of moose of anywhere in North America. Which is pretty much what IM Law had been created to do.

    The problem was, biologists found out that this was too many moose for the available habitat. Along with the highest densities, 20A also had the lowest twinning rates. And twinning rates correlate to available browse. So more browse studies were initiated and come to find out the moose in 20A are eating themselves out of habitat.

    In order that things didn't get worse, and so the browse could replenish itself, we needed to take more moose, including cows. At any given point, one or two really bad winters would also cause a huge dieoff of all those moose, and biologists felt that rather than those moose basically go to waste if that happened, that we'd all be better off if they went to feed Alaskans.

    Biologists are doing a good job imo under the constraints they must work with according to our IM Law mandates. What you are essentially unhappy with, Captain T, is IM law, and the decisions of the Board of Game that sets all hunting regs, seasons and bag limits. Plus, it is the Advisory Committees that actually have final say on any antlerless hunts, which is a pretty unique power to have.
    If I remember correctly, Dave Kellyhouse was the moose biologist in the late 70's in this area, I think he killed a lot of wolves out in the flats, The main reason for the come back.

    I wouldn't be against a modest cow season, but their killing way to many.

    You obviously don't hunt 20A or you wouldn't parrot the company line about lack of feed, thats just silly.

    twinning has nothing to do with food abundance.

    The board of game doesn't just arbitrarily make cow seasons without important input from biologist, if they said we can't have a cow season the densities are to low, there wouldn't be one.

    Mark my words you will see a push towards wolf control within the next couple of years, It's a time tested ADF&G cycle. Kill off to much game,start predator control, herd recovers, start cow season, kill to many, start predator control, repeat.

  19. #19
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Deltajct
    Posts
    2,499

    Default

    History always repeats itself in one form or another.

    You can take that to the bank!!!

  20. #20
    Member byrd_hntr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Squarebanks
    Posts
    661

    Default Every other year?

    Just a suggestion...

    What about proposing an every other year cow hunt? This would allow folks that want to get a cow and get the experience of shooting a moose to do so but lessen the impact. Im not a biologist so I can't speak to why they are recommending the cow hunts. From my personal expereience flying over the flats last summer I saw a ton of moose. Inbetween Wood River Buttes and FAI, I counted 38 cows (didn't count calves) during July last summer. Im not sure what a healthy density is for the flats. That just the number I counted on a flight last summer.
    I'm going to ctrl-alt-delete you so hard your mama's computer is going to reboot.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •