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Thread: Building a hanger

  1. #1

    Default Building a hanger

    I am starting to make plans/figure costs to build a hanger/living quarters. Thinking it will be closer to Anchorage than Fairbanks. I haven't purchased any property yet, hopefully this fall. Leaning towards a wood framed building that I will construct myself. Anyone built a hanger recently wood or metal? Where did you get your materials from? What would you do differently?

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Default

    I would talk with the folks at Spenard to see what they have to offer. They do truss fabrication and would likely be a good first stop when looking at plans.

  3. #3

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    Where are you going to buy that much land, are you going to clear the land yourself for a runway, are you ok with landing on a dirt strip. I am trying to do what you are doing unfortunatly the plane I want requires pavement or a hard packed short grass strip. All of the developed air port hangers are an arm and a leg and cost almost as much as the plane, this has been a real conumdrum for me as I am not a rockefeller, my only hope are some of these airport communities but thats still expensive.

    If you have the land and a strip build putting up a pull barn metal fab building should be a cake walk, the most expensive part will be the concrete slab and possibly the insulation as you will want it heated.

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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Default .02

    Have a metal one currently. It is part of the "5 year plan". When we move to where we plan to retire in the valley, it will be wood, with lots of insulation and as low of a ceiling reasonable. (12' maybe)
    Metal with big ceiling now is NOT efficient.
    You can put a hi-fold door on lower ceiling height and still have bigger opening. In floor heat is a must have. I would look at the benefits of 2x8 walls and extra insulation too. Maybe not worth it but I'd check prior to build. Hard to insulate the door but good options out there.

  5. #5

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    I will check with Spenard.

    You bring up a valid point to not overdo the ceiling height. Do you have radiant heat and ceiling fans pushing the heat down in the winter in your current hangar?

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    Member algonquin's Avatar
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    Default had a lot in seldovia

    I had a lot in Seldovia on a lease from the state and gave it back to them. They say that there mission is to develope aviation in Alaska, what a joke. That said I've looked at about everything from cover-it buildings to pole barns. A lot depends upon how nice you want it to look and how fast you want it up and running. Also gravel floor vs. heated concrete . How big do you want the living quarter. If you want to buy a lot in the valley you may find most of the developement have some type of home owners assoc. W/ restrictive rules on construction. I would guess the min. in these areas are metal hangers, which isn't that bad. You can gravel floor the hanger area and I've seen blow on foam encapulating the apt. in the rear of the hanger. The average I found for a lot is aprox.$40,000.00, undevloped. Good luck is a fun project to research. Tom

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    Care to expand on "mission to develop aviation in alaska"?

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    Default Talk to Willow Air

    They put up a hangar this summer w/ wood. They seem like nice folks...bet they'd give you a story about it when they had the time.

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    Default yes and no

    Radiant yes. Don't build without it.

    Fans, no. There's no heat in the top of metal hangars either.


    I would basically build just like a house but heavier. 2x6 walls (2x8 even??), lower cielings (but high enough to lift tail to rig skis/weigh, etc), in floor heat, R-25 or so walls, and 10" blown in the roof. Soybean spray the door or possibly polyurethane but make it thick with good seals. The high-fold door is self supporting so doesn't need a huge header to support door. It also doesn't have the wasted space at the top of the door opening a bi fold has. (lower walls/less materials=money saved)

    That's about how mine will go up and its only my .02. Probably better ideas from pros.

    The only warm/economical hangars I've been in are built like a house....imagine that. Makes sense and if you use some forethought, you won't spend a dime more, probably less than metal.
    Also, about the trusses, the shorter the span the cheaper. IE build a 40 x 60 istead of a 50x50. More sf and less money in the end. (40' span trusses). Research the dimensions and you can save big. For instance: They may have a huge savings on 38' trusses or such. I'd go 38x60 or 70.

    Suggest looking at some of the private airfields around the valley. Some have high fees to live there so be careful. Also, review the matsu borough aviation plan. Some airfields have a better chance of survival than others.

    Good luck.

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    Member algonquin's Avatar
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    Default goosepilot

    Heck I'll just get off on a rant about insantity of goverment and their rules and reg.

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    Default Grizzly 1

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    Radiant yes. Don't build without it.

    Fans, no. There's no heat in the top of metal hangars either.


    I would basically build just like a house but heavier. 2x6 walls (2x8 even??), lower cielings (but high enough to lift tail to rig skis/weigh, etc), in floor heat, R-25 or so walls, and 10" blown in the roof. Soybean spray the door or possibly polyurethane but make it thick with good seals. The high-fold door is self supporting so doesn't need a huge header to support door. It also doesn't have the wasted space at the top of the door opening a bi fold has. (lower walls/less materials=money saved)

    That's about how mine will go up and its only my .02. Probably better ideas from pros.

    The only warm/economical hangars I've been in are built like a house....imagine that. Makes sense and if you use some forethought, you won't spend a dime more, probably less than metal.
    Also, about the trusses, the shorter the span the cheaper. IE build a 40 x 60 istead of a 50x50. More sf and less money in the end. (40' span trusses). Research the dimensions and you can save big. For instance: They may have a huge savings on 38' trusses or such. I'd go 38x60 or 70.

    Suggest looking at some of the private airfields around the valley. Some have high fees to live there so be careful. Also, review the matsu borough aviation plan. Some airfields have a better chance of survival than others.

    Good luck.
    How do you stop the heat from rising to the top? You say that "there's no heat in the top of metal hangars either." Actually, that's where all the heat wants to go . . . Heat piping in the slab is surely the very best way to go, yes!

    The header over the door opening isn't there to support the door, it's there to support the wall and roof loads (both live and dead) from above. This header transfers the downward loads to the sides of the door (to posts, columns, or "stacked" studs) to direct it to the foundation.

    A "bi-folding" door (see your closet doors at home, probably . . . ) require no headroom, since they open by moving horizontally.
    As to low headroom, some doors are "low headroom" and some are not. Your door supplier can provide the "low headroom" door, but you'll have to discuss that with him to be sure he understands the headroom that will actually be provided by your design and its "ceiling" height.

    Truly, not much is cheaper than a prefacricated metal building. With that building system, though, you must still add insulation, heat, electricity, water, etc . . . In the end, they're not really all that economical. Moreover, they're pretty cold to begin with. With a wood building, you'll get insulation value even with something as basic as the wall sheathing.

    Finally, the wall insulation doesn't have to be really impressive. Heat loss and/or heat gain through the walls is almost neglible. Heat is lost or gained through the roof. Remember two things: (1) there is no such thing as "cold," only the absence of heat; and (2) heat rises. It does not travel sideways, unless directed to do so by fan action or other outside influence. Talk to any company that uses infrared to study heat loss of buildings. Their cameras ALWAYS show that heat is lost (or gained) through the roof, while that lost (or gained) through the walls amounts to almost nothing. A real help would be to lay 1" of Styrofoam "blue" beneath the slam to help stop radiant heat from leaching through in its effort to warm the earth. After all, that in-slab heating will want to radiate in ALL directions. And, that heat that cannot go downward will be directed upward into the hangar. Kills two birds with one stone, so to speak.

    Good luck with it all.

    Mort

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    Default Metal hanger

    A friend of a friend built his all metal insulated building and with the money he saved by not using wood trusses ect he was able to concrete the floor. But I'm currently in Ohio I'm not sure of your availability or costs..PS he uses an outdoor boiler to heat everything.

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    Default check your facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly 1 View Post
    How do you stop the heat from rising to the top? You say that "there's no heat in the top of metal hangars either." Actually, that's where all the heat wants to go . . . Heat piping in the slab is surely the very best way to go, yes!

    The header over the door opening isn't there to support the door, it's there to support the wall and roof loads (both live and dead) from above. This header transfers the downward loads to the sides of the door (to posts, columns, or "stacked" studs) to direct it to the foundation.

    A "bi-folding" door (see your closet doors at home, probably . . . ) require no headroom, since they open by moving horizontally.
    As to low headroom, some doors are "low headroom" and some are not. Your door supplier can provide the "low headroom" door, but you'll have to discuss that with him to be sure he understands the headroom that will actually be provided by your design and its "ceiling" height.

    Truly, not much is cheaper than a prefacricated metal building. With that building system, though, you must still add insulation, heat, electricity, water, etc . . . In the end, they're not really all that economical. Moreover, they're pretty cold to begin with. With a wood building, you'll get insulation value even with something as basic as the wall sheathing.

    Finally, the wall insulation doesn't have to be really impressive. Heat loss and/or heat gain through the walls is almost neglible. Heat is lost or gained through the roof. Remember two things: (1) there is no such thing as "cold," only the absence of heat; and (2) heat rises. It does not travel sideways, unless directed to do so by fan action or other outside influence. Talk to any company that uses infrared to study heat loss of buildings. Their cameras ALWAYS show that heat is lost (or gained) through the roof, while that lost (or gained) through the walls amounts to almost nothing. A real help would be to lay 1" of Styrofoam "blue" beneath the slam to help stop radiant heat from leaching through in its effort to warm the earth. After all, that in-slab heating will want to radiate in ALL directions. And, that heat that cannot go downward will be directed upward into the hangar. Kills two birds with one stone, so to speak.

    Good luck with it all.

    Mort
    www.bifold.com/

    Check it out. Shows bifold and hifold (hydraulic design) doors and how they mount (to include the large header or other structure to support the bifold like I said. Also shows where you will have about 24" of wasted space at the top; again just like I said. I have never saw a door on a hangar in AK like a closet door you describe except the little old t-hangars at the sw end of BCV. (not heated or insulated) I have worked in many (over 2 decades), own one, and am building another soon.

    As to not heavily insulating a wall, please tell the builders of premium homes here in AK. The hangar design I described was designed from a builder here in the valley. Its why all the 5 star homes are so cozy and efficient. I just enlarged size to a hangar.

    As to quoting me that there is no heat in the top of a metal building: Maybe you didn't see the big smiley face by the sentence. I was joking. The point is that metal hangars are so very inefficient you will spend so much to fix it that its rarely worth the investment.

    Also, a comparable sized wood building (when I quoted mine out a year ago) is quite a bit cheaper than a metal building. Not to mention way more efficient. This is assuming self built like he posted. Those conclusions are based on many hours of research and I have a file full of the specs to back it up. Please, where are you coming up with your facts?

    If you want to get into a discussion on heat transfer, please pm me and I'll have the discussion. We can even discuss the three methods of heat transfer. Until then, yes heat rises. I am aware of that. Heat also goes through the steel beams all through the walls as well as wood structure, just slower. Again, see every nice house built around Alaska in the last decade.

    Out of curiosity, when did you leave Alaska? How many and what kind of hangars did you build? Own? I read your book btw.

    If you are intentionally trying to treat me like some dipshot, then PM. If not, sorry to be blunt, but check your facts before giving me the what for!

    Goosepilot,
    PM me if you want any info. I should have known better than post on the forum. You can check out my metal hangar and some friends wood hangar/house and see for yourself any time you want. We can walk around BCV one day if you desire, and you can basically see a bunch of different designs; wood and steel. Do all the research you can and take anything from the web with a grain of salt (obviously). There are many folks around that have done exactly what you are talking about and will let you check their place out.

  14. #14

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    Speaking of looking around. What is the proper etiquette at these private developments? Do you need to make contact with someone before hand or can you politely drop in unannounced?

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    Smile Hangar in Happy Valley(near Ninilchik)

    Had a hangar built by son n law and friend. 42 wide by 36 with 12x36 full loft. Spenard supplied the trusses. Stick framed out of 2x6x12 for walls, covered with 1/2 OSB on walls 23/32 on roof. Covered whole outside with metal. 5" concrete floor, plumbing ran outside and stubbed out. 40' Schwiess byfold. Not insulated yet. 60K for that not including the land. Looks really nice and is solid.

  16. #16

    Default Nice to have some recent numbers

    12x36 loft? Do you mean 12x42?

    Sounds like about what I was thinking at least 40 wide with home made bi or hyd swing door, 40 deep with overhead on side for vehicles, and maybe 20 x 40 for living.

    Has anyone built a stick hangar on poured piers, then poured the floor at a later date? Would like to do this on a cash basis over a 2 yr span.

    Anything you would do different?

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    Default Grizzly 1

    Quote Originally Posted by goosepilot View Post
    12x36 loft? Do you mean 12x42?

    Sounds like about what I was thinking at least 40 wide with home made bi or hyd swing door, 40 deep with overhead on side for vehicles, and maybe 20 x 40 for living.

    Has anyone built a stick hangar on poured piers, then poured the floor at a later date? Would like to do this on a cash basis over a 2 yr span.

    Anything you would do different?
    If you're going to build a hangar with a dirt floor, you'll have no slab that ties into the foundation walls. That means that your piers (whether concrete or masonry) will have to be tied together to keep the walls from "splaying out." That will mean pouring reinforced concrete "tie beams" below grade, tying these into the piers with reinforcing bars. It's not difficult, but it will be necessary. If you got a snow load on the roof, the live load (downward pressure from the wright) will want to settle, forcing the piers outward. Make sense? Kinda like a metal building with no slab - - - with its slab poured later. SOMETHING will have to tie the hangar walls (and foundation) together.

    Good LUck with it.

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    Default

    My reference to bi-fold doors was to "track mounted" doors, not overhead bi-parting, suspended. doors Doors that part vertically, rather than horizontally.

    As to my experience with heat gain and heat loss, you'll find I was one of the architects on the Universitiy of Alaska-Anchorage's CAB-72 building (the 3-story, rusting steel, Core-10, chemistry building), the "funny looking" state offices at Lake Hood, the Orah Dee Clark Jr. High School, the Sewqrd Clinic, and a hatful of homes in the Anchorage area. Our two-man firm did a heat study for Ford, as well as a school constrution cost study for Ford. I've build hangars in northern Idaho, and elsewhere. We were selected to perform all USAF design and engineerig work in
    Alaska for the 1961 calendar year. I'm not trying to get into an argument with you - - - - - or with anyone else. But vertical design, engineering, and heat gain/loss aren't unknown to me. On my last construction project, I was Sr. Project Engineer for Donald Trump at his Trump-Dezer Royale, a 55-story condo project in Miami Beach (actually Sunny Isles Beach). I'm not trying towave my own flag, just trying to let you know that I'm aware that the heat gained or lost through walls is largely gained or lost through poor sealing around windows and doors, rather than through the walls themselves. Again, look at any heat loss photos or videos.

    A lot of heat loss in a metal building is evidenced by its "cold soaked" penetration items (bolts, rivets, girts, purlins, etc.). The purlins, for instance, penetrate any insulation placed on or in the walls. These allow the heat to escape by conduction, as you know. (The other two means to which you refer are no doubt radiation and convection.) Wood walls make poor conductors, given their studs, exterior sheathing and interior finishes (if any). In most areas, a rating of R-9 is more than sufficient. A concrete block wall with 1" styrofoam insulation applied to the interior faces give an insulating value of around R-6 or so. The masonry (blocks) alone are worth around R-3.0. That isn't much, but in reality not much heat radiates through the walls at any rate. Some, but not much. It's busy rising. Which is why a gravity cooling system is relatively effective. It's also why roof insulation is not uncommon at a rating or R-22 or even above, while walls can escape with only R-6 to R-9.

    I suspect the reason your frame hangar was less expensive than a metal hangar was that your frame building included insulation, while the metal bulding very likely did not. Besides, I agree that a metal building in Alaska is a cold mutha.

    I'm really not trying to pick a fight. It's just that architecture, engineering, and building construction ain't completeloy losot on me. I first became an architect in 1963. Drifted into construction a number of years later (after winning several national and regional design awards. That's not 'cause I was a hotshot, but because I had good clients.), and still keep one eye on it. You certainly do know what you're talking about, and our differences are only because we're talking at cross purposes.

    As to the wall insulation in Anchorage homes, it may well be on account of ICBO (Uniform Building Code) requirements. Since the building codes in this country are "standards", you'll notice that they get around to changing them about every two years. New systems, mew materials, etc . . . . . That code also spells out the requirement of R-factors for roof insulation.

    Peace, my friend. I really apologize if I phrase my self poorly at times. I wasn't throwing stones at you, and apologize if it seemed that way.

    Let's just say that everything you mentioned is pretty much correct. We all certainly appreciate your help and your experience.

    By the way, have you read the second book, The Alaska Bush Pilot Chronicles?

    As they say in the QB,

    Burro,

    Mort

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    Default

    If you are looking to heat a large building such as a hanger I would suggest monitor or toyo type heaters. I have built 2 hangers 60x60 and 60 x 72 with 16 ft cielings and heated them both with 2 monitors. Even opening the doors is no problem they heat back up quickly. I heard how great infloor heat was so I put it in a new house with tall ceilings and it is great heat since the floor is warm. The problem is it is the most expensive heat I have ever seen. Don't let anyone tell you infloor heat does not rise to the ceiling all heat rises. I am putting a monitor in the house and shutting down the infloor heat because it is just too expensive to run.

  20. #20

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    cubdriver
    Did you insulate below the infloor heat or are you heating all the ground below the slab?
    I have always heard the intial cost is more$$$, but infloor was way more efficient. Only negative was after opening a big door it would take longer to heat the air back up.
    Curious
    WR

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